The Pondify Podcast

Matt Squirrell: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of the Pondify podcast. I'm your host Matt and I'm joined by my co host Nigel. Nigel, good to see you. Thank
Nigel Warner: you very much. Nice to be seen. I'm
Matt Squirrell: not just with Nigel though, I'm joined by two new guests in the studio. Guest one, would you like to introduce
Ruth Kirkland: yourself?
Yes, Matt. My name is Ruth, and I'm a member of Community Church here. I'm married to Neil. I've got two children, Jamie and Izzy. Good
Matt Squirrell: evening. Good evening. It's lovely to see you, Ruth. And I'm joined by another guest. Guest two,
Ollie: introduce yourself. Hi, my name's Ollie. This is actually my second appearance on the podcast.
So if you want to know more about me, go back and listen to the first one. Fantastic.
Matt Squirrell: So it's Matt, Nigel, Ruth and Ollie. Big question that we're discussing is how does forgiveness and unforgiveness Affect our relationship with god ollie. Where do
Ollie: we start with that one? Actually I think we start by taking quite a big step back And just thinking [00:01:00] about what our relationship with god is like in the first place So what is the nature of our relationship with god?
And I think if you want to see what this looks like You could do a lot worse than going back to Jesus and looking at the relationship that he had with his first followers. And when he calls them, he called these guys out that didn't really know anything about him. There, there's no reason to think that there was anything good about their lives, particularly.
And so it would appear that the bar for entry into following Jesus is set very low. We read that. It's purely by Jesus grace that we come into relationship with the father. It's just because of the blood of Jesus on the cross that we can do that.
Nothing to do with who we are, what we've done, those things are not good enough to earn a relationship with him. It's purely by his grace. And so that's the kind of, that is a, that is an essential thing for us to lay down before we talk about anything else this evening. We must understand that our relationship with Jesus, our salvation, the forgiveness of our sins was bought at the highest price by [00:02:00] Jesus.
And not at all by our actions, by our goodness, by our righteousness, because my righteousness, any righteousness that I have is purely from him. Because as
Matt Squirrell: I understand it, Christianity is the only religion where it's not about what we do. It's about what God does. Is that fair to say?
Ollie: Yeah, absolutely.
The central message of Christianity is you're not good enough. And that's why a lot of people find it offensive, right? So at the very beginning, you have to accept that reality of however hard I try. I cannot pay back to God what I owe him because of the things that I have done that have been in direct rebellion against What he's told me to do.
I need the blood of Jesus to cover my sin I need him to redeem me to rescue me The fact that I can have a relationship with God at all The fact that i've been welcomed into his family is purely what he's done and nothing at all of what i've done So it's really
Nigel Warner: important that we know that we can give our life to christ.
We can follow christ There is forgiveness there Following [00:03:00] after that moment where we give our life to Christ, there is this thing called discipleship. Yeah. And discipleship is that path following Jesus. It's what happens after we come to faith. So the reason Ollie has started the podcast instead of me is because Ollie preached a sermon a few weeks ago, which was an excellent sermon as part of our Discipleship, our Practicing the Way of Jesus series.
And he talked about... So the reason we're looking at forgiveness is because questions arose as a result of it. So would you add other things to that? The thing about salvation, how does one come to know Jesus?
Ollie: So the first thing is that coming to know Jesus, probably the clearest place in scripture where you can find that is Romans 10 verse 9.
And we use this often in baptisms and things like that, but really there are two statements that are made at that point. It says that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and if you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, then you will [00:04:00] be saved. And that is the simplest that it could be.
So there is a belief that it's Jesus death and resurrection that buys my freedom, and there is a recognition and a confessing from me that Jesus is Lord. And in that, there's a kind of hint towards discipleship. So right at the very beginning, we talked just a few minutes ago about the calling of the first disciples, not only did he call these guys that, that hadn't yet done anything to earn it, but he then said, drop everything and follow me.
And that's the that's the Christian life. That's what it's about. And declaring that Jesus is Lord. In your life, it is saying what he says. He wants me to do that's what my heart is going to be set on what he says He doesn't want me to do. I'm gonna I'm going to turn against those things and that ultimately I would say is what?
It means to give your life to him.
Nigel Warner: So when one becomes a Christian is one forgiven? Yes
Ollie: Everything that you will? Do after that moment that is in rebellion against God
Nigel Warner: So when one [00:05:00] becomes a Christian and then one enters a discipleship journey afterwards, does one always feel forgiven?
Ollie: No, absolutely not. And that is one of the hardest things, I think, about being a believer. I can't tell you how many times I've walked into church knowing the conversation that I had in the car or knowing the thing that I did the day before and feeling I'm not worthy to come into the place of worship and that is such a thing that every believer I think wrestles with at some point in their Christian journey.
Matt Squirrell: What about you Ruth? Do you feel forgiven? And do you always feel
Ruth Kirkland: forgiven? Yeah, I think I think what Ollie said I'd agree with that most of the time I do. But there are times when I do things that I hate and then I feel rubbish about myself. I can remember specifically one time when I'd been with the children and I'd shouted at them and then I'd come into church and started to sing [00:06:00] worship to Jesus and just felt like I couldn't and I shouldn't have been there.
And. I think that's a really common feeling. Yeah and God spoke to me, he did speak to me then. And he did reveal a lie that I was believing, and I think I quite often used to think that if I'd done something wrong, then I just wanted to hide away and not spend time with him, but like one thing that he told me, which is really obvious really, but that is that he knows everything anyway like you can try and hide away, but God knows you're good and you're bad all the time there's no point.
And then I guess the other thing is that you need him more. at those times. So those times when you feel most rubbish or you feel like you've messed up, actually, that's when you really need to go to God and say, help me, God, there's no point hiding away. He's there with open arms.
Nigel Warner: So I think it's worth pointing out there's a difference between feeling guilty and being guilty.
Now, most people from the outside wouldn't know [00:07:00] that I carry around on my shoulders in the invisible, this huge, tremendous weight of guilt all the time.
And it's unjustified. It's not important. Excuse me a second. I was mugged.
Most people who know me don't know that I carry round this big burden of guilt all the time. And part of that comes from my upbringing and from a sense of guilt that was you know, nobody does it intentionally to children, nobody does it intentionally to anybody. Part of it comes from that. Part of it comes from the fact that I'm incredibly aware of how imperfect I am, and therefore the effect that I can have on other people, neither of which is real in the sense of that guilt is not there because Jesus has taken that guilt and dealt with it.
But I haven't dealt with it in myself, and it's a process by which I am, I think [00:08:00] 40 odd years into my Christian walk and I still haven't dealt with it fully. And it's not because it's such an enormous burden of guilt, it's just because I haven't got there yet. Do other people have that stuff too? Am I the only one?
Ollie: No, you're not. And I think I think one of the things that Christians sometimes do is get a stage into their Christian walk and think, okay, I got the gospel when I was a baby Christian and I don't really need to think about it anymore. And my experience has been that over the course of my Christian journey, I have had multiple moments in my life where God has pulled me back to the gospel and said, no, we need to look at this again.
You and I need to understand this again. You need to know what I've done for you. And there have been several moments in my life actually, where I've had pretty significant, I would say revelations of things that are so central to the gospel that I probably should have known them from the beginning.
But the way that God works with us is so merciful that he will keep reminding us because we do struggle with this stuff. It is difficult to [00:09:00] accept none of my sin is on me anymore. And I am closed in the righteousness of Jesus. That is such a, it's such an easy thing to say and such a tough thing to, to actually live out and to genuinely believe when we do mess it up sometimes.
Matt Squirrell: I tend to accept, the stuff that I've done or the stuff that I did before I was a Christian has been forgiven. I really struggle with the new stuff. That when I mess up and especially when it's where I've messed up.
Repeatedly in those particular areas. I keep I do heap the the judgment upon myself. I really struggle to know that God does forgive. And I will sometimes even believe lies that the enemy will speak over me. And say, or where he says God is going to punish you.
You need to be punished for the sin that you've committed. And I don't know what it is, but whenever I know, whenever I've gone to God about something that is like a habitual sin I feel immediately afterwards like I'm going to have a bad [00:10:00] time, like I'm going to have a bad day at work, or I'm going to have a bad time at home with my children or with my wife.
It's like I expect it. How do we know though that we are fully forgiven? Because it where God brings me back to him and sorts out the lies from the truth, but how do we know that we're fully forgiven? How do we know that the stuff that we that we habitually mess up on is actually done.
When Jesus was on the cross, he said, it is finished. How do we know that?
Nigel Warner: I think one of the ways we can know that is because God tells us. And the whole point of faith is to believe something and you believe it as if it's true, even if you don't feel it's true. And I think there has to be an awful lot to do with that, because God says your sins are forgiven through Jesus. He paid the price for all of our guilt for the guilt of the world.
He paid the price. That is why he died on the cross. And the Bible says time and time again, [00:11:00] if you believe, as Zoli said earlier, if you believe, have faith, you are forgiven. I think that's a really important point. The other thing is, it's a process to learn. We have to learn, we go through it, we grow up.
I am always blown away by the number of people who think that if they just sing in the right way and they do the right thing, their whole Christian life will be perfect and they will be really fine. I can't even tell you on this podcast what I actually think of that, because it's too rude. I absolutely don't believe it is fine at all.
It is the beginning of a journey when you come to faith. And it's a journey. into more likeness with Jesus and Jesus was perfect. I am not, I have such a long way to journey and I will never reach it. So in one sense I would say, I don't know with utter certainty that I'm forgiven. [00:12:00] I utterly believe I am forgiven.
Therefore my knowledge follows my faith, not my faith following my knowledge. If that makes sense.
Ollie: Maybe that's part of what it means to. confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord. Jesus said, I've forgiven you. It's finished. And the declaration that Jesus is Lord maybe starts over me. So Jesus is Lord.
Jesus said it's finished. So it's finished. And whether it feels finished or not, I need to keep reminding myself, he said it's finished. So it's finished because I've decided he's Lord. That's a daily process.
Nigel Warner: I think perhaps we should read a bit of scripture. Is that okay? This is this verse was in, in the sermon that Ollie preached, but it was, it's actually the verse that gives people the most trouble, I think. It's in Mark, chapter 6, and it says, If you forgive other people when they sin against you, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father... Now here's the [00:13:00] question. Does that just undo everything we've just said?
My answer is no it doesn't, but why?
Ollie: I agree, it doesn't. I think we have to recognize that we came into a relationship with Jesus through no bad intentions. No brilliance of our own. It wasn't our doing that did it. But when I came into a relationship with Jesus, one of the things that I did was to say, He is Lord. And that means when He makes claims over my life, that is His right to do that.
And so if He says to me, I want you to forgive people when they sin against you, that's His right to say that. And my responsibility as a believer is to live in such a way that means that I am day by day walking through that. Now, I guess the question comes up of, so what about that moment where I'm not yet able to forgive somebody I want to, but I don't feel like I can?
Then what, how do I travel through that? [00:14:00] And if we discount ourselves from salvation at that point and say I'm on a journey towards forgiving that person, but right now I'm not there yet. That suggests that at salvation, we're expecting ourselves to be perfect. We're expecting that we're the we're finished and we're not it's a journey at the point where I accepted Jesus I had nothing to offer him I am gradually being transformed into his likeness.
It's a glorious part of the gospel but it's a process and i'm not finished yet. And so those moments where I can't forgive Yet are moments where I need to be, I need to be trusting him and praying and bringing it before him. I do think we've got a problem if, as a believer, we say, I can't forgive that person and I'm not even gonna try and I don't want to.
I think that's where we've got a problem. It's a lack of obedience then, isn't it? And it's also, I think at that point we're also saying, Jesus, you're not Lord over this. And because I am [00:15:00] saved, because I confess with my mouth that Jesus is Lord, or at least that is a part of it, I think that becomes a problem at that stage.
Ruth Kirkland: I wonder though, Ollie, if you could feel that, but then move out of that stage. And I only say that because I've had some issues in my life where I've struggled to forgive, and actually, right at the very beginning, I didn't even feel like I wanted to. I knew I had to, but I really didn't want to. I really
Nigel Warner: important.
You have to is a first step towards doing it. I
Ruth Kirkland: suppose so. I suppose that's where I see a bit of a difference between myself and my non Christian friends. Like sometimes you think, oh, what are these differences that play out in our lives? And I guess with my non Christian friends, they would say, We're all for revenge, and we don't have to, whereas for me, as a Christian, I would say I have to, but I can't and I don't want to at the moment.
Nigel Warner: I hesitate to re order the Bible sometimes, but I [00:16:00] just, as you were talking earlier, I just had a thought about that verse again. There is another way to read it, which is a slightly different way, and it's difficult because I don't know what the Greek translation is, so I don't know all of that stuff off the top of my head.
But if you read it, something along the lines of. For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, it shows that you know your Heavenly Father has forgiven you. But if you do not forgive others of their sins when they sin against you, It shows that you haven't got a hold of it yet.
That is, of course, not in the original Greek in any manner whatsoever. But I think there is a thing about an overflow of two, is that people who have forgiven lots are generally so grace filled, and it's an overflow of their comprehension. Their understanding of God's love for them, God's grace for them, God's forgiveness for them.
Whereas people who haven't had to forgive much who have had it easier, [00:17:00] sometimes that must I know sometimes it is difficult for people to comprehend. Why does God need to forgive me? I haven't done anything wrong. I'm a good person. I think there's something about overflow that needs to be thought about at least.
Ollie: Yeah, absolutely. And when Jesus was preaching on forgiveness, one of the and actually the passage that I used when I spoke on it a couple of weeks ago was the passage of the, these two servants and the one who's been forgiven and an absolutely impossible debt. And then from, it's from that position that he is then expected to go and forgive.
Others that others hold against him and I think it's, it, this comes to the heart of the matter in many ways, which is what is our. What is our motivation for forgiveness? Where does it come from? Because to say, okay, go forgive. All right, fine. But it's really hard.
And the last thing the Bible does actually is to downplay the pain that is caused by [00:18:00] people sinning against us. People sinning against us is a horrible part of human existence. It's... And there are people who have experienced wrongs done against them that are totally unacceptable.
And there's no way to justify the thing that was done. And so if we're to get to the bottom of forgiveness, we have to, I think we have to be willing to recognize this is a really difficult thing. And so the motivation and the kind of the tools that you need to do that have got to come from a recognition that I have been forgiven.
That's got to be the start. And not
Matt Squirrell: only that, but the cost of that forgiveness, like the, you said it earlier, Ollie. Going back to the gospel, the amount of times that I've, and you mentioned it earlier, but the amount of times I've gone back and I've read what Jesus actually went through for me.
You can see it in media, like the passion of the Christ. I can't watch that, that, that film without [00:19:00] breaking down in tears because it, it, it was worse than what is shown on, on, on that film. But knowing that whilst Jesus was going through that torture whilst the father turned away from him for a second, like it just breaks my heart.
And that, that is the cost. You mentioned it in your preach. You said, the reason that, that Jesus used this this story of the two servants and the ridiculous amount of the debt it just. It just blows my mind because Jesus paid more than that ridiculous debt. I'm just amazed by it.
I'm just, it blows my mind. That I think is what encourages me to forgive because I can say yeah. Like it's hard in all honesty when I've had to forgive. [00:20:00] It's not as hard as what Jesus has gone through for me. So I'm prepared to enter into that process. And it is a process of forgiveness doesn't make it right.
What those people did. It encourages me. He encourages me to say. Yeah, you are Lord. You've paid that biggest price. I'm prepared to start this.
Ollie: And the price that he paid as he was on the cross was, from his position, he had done nothing wrong. It wasn't his sin that held him on the cross. It was my sin that held him on the cross and the model that jesus presented and the pattern that he created for us to follow is to say The forgiveness is not about me Seeking some kind of fair deal where I get what's owed to me because that's not what Jesus did.
What Jesus did was to [00:21:00] say, everything is owed to me. I don't deserve any of this. I, all of this is mine. I made all of this stuff. This world is my creation. And yet I will do this for you. And I think that's a part of Christian forgiveness is that it isn't treating somebody fairly.
It's treating somebody much, much better than what they deserve. And that's the heart of grace in Jesus. And it's a heart of grace that, that Jesus wants to create in each of us. And when you put it like that and you realize in forgiveness, I'm expressing the grace of Jesus to people around me, then it becomes pretty significant.
No less difficult, but pretty important.
Matt Squirrell: What do you do in a situation though, when someone has sinned against you? But they don't want forgiveness or they don't see that they need forgiveness.
Ruth Kirkland: I can try and answer that question as best I can. I've been in that situation a few times. I think, firstly, it's between you and God [00:22:00] anyway. I think yeah, I don't know what else to say.
Nigel Warner: It's quite a difficult question because it comes a little bit out of the flow. Can I ask a secondary question just before we get to that stuff?
My question really is, we, in one sense, we've asked why might we find it hard to forgive? It could be because of what somebody's done against us. It could be because of our hearts, whatever. My question really is, what is the effect when we don't forgive? What's the effect of unforgiveness on us as people, but also as Christians?
What's the effect?
Ruth Kirkland: For me, personally, the effect is that I build walls around my heart and harden my heart, and I then stop loving people as I should, and some of that is to protect myself, and some of that is to I guess try and hurt the other person and not allow the connection and the relationship to go on as it did before [00:23:00] and and that affects your relationship with God then because when your heart is hard God can't use you and speak to you as clearly and I think you open That's the door for the devil to work in your life as well.
You allow the enemy ground in your life to use you in ways that he wants and not what God wants. So yeah, I think, yeah I'm thinking of one particular time when I was hurt very badly by a friend and what happened was that I found myself locked in this cycle of rehearsing the things I wish I'd said and I'd be in the shower or I'd be in the garden and, I would be thinking about these conversations and what I wish I'd said or how I wish I'd said it or what I wish I could say if they were there.
And it was like I was absolutely in chains and I couldn't break out of that. So
Nigel Warner: [00:24:00] how did you break out of that?
Ruth Kirkland: Do you know that one was a really interesting one Nigel because twice I have been I would say like supernaturally helped to forgive and the rest of the time I would say I've had to go through a very long process and that was one of the times when I was supernaturally helped to forgive.
In fact I did bring a diary from that time because it was at a conference, a prophetic conference that I went to and I found this. I've, I dug it out for tonight because I thought, oh, I wonder if I've remembered like what the feelings are then. Thank you. I said, I walked into the foyer. There was a girl there.
We started a conversation and she said some prophetic things to me and she then said, could she pray for me? So I said, Oh, absolutely. So then she began speaking about heart hurts. I said how I needed freedom from a relationship problem that I that was holding me and that I'd prayed that God would bring freedom to me at this [00:25:00] conference from these chains.
So we moved into a corner and she began praying again. I forgave hurts and things that have been done to me and myself and she declared that I would not be partnering with rejection anymore. And I released this I realised that what I'd been doing was entertaining and obsessing with these thoughts.
She drew a circle round me, just an imaginary circle in Christ's blood. She declared that my mind be protected, that only what I wanted could come in, and I felt absolute, complete freedom at that time. I've put here, I cried, I laughed, I felt God's power and complete release and lightness. She told me that my capacity for loving others and for experiencing God's love would grow.
And then I've put here at the worship time later, I had a revelation of God's father love for me, a new depth, a new step. Like when I look back, I hadn't fully grasped how loved. I was before we sang a song of love to God, but I felt God was singing it back over me. So that was one time, thank you Ollie for holding the mic, that [00:26:00] I was supernaturally freed from that unforgiveness that I was carrying.
And then one time was just recently in church here, but other times I have had to go through a long process and dismantle walls and ask for God's help and ask people to pray for me. And when it's involved finances or family, like sometimes it felt, it's felt even more painful or a family member who's died, like that's been really hard.
Nigel Warner: I have to say, just as an interspersed there, there are some things that we just cannot get rid of and that needs supernatural. Gold. Interceding for us. Often when I'm prophesying over people or praying over people, I get an insight into what's going on. And it's not for them. It's not for me to share.
It's just God saying this is my heart for them, and I need you to pray into this and Very often when I'm praying over people I get a sense of abuse when they've [00:27:00] been abused I walked down the road the other week and I walked past this woman and I was so Overwhelmed with what she was going through. I turned and she looked absolutely normal perfectly happy and I thought well, maybe I'm going mad but God sees What is going on?
And if you are listening to this and thinking there is stuff that is just too big for me to handle please talk to someone who you trust in the church, who you love and loves you, whatever happens talk to them, get them to pray with you. We have people in the church who will help you through stuff.
We just want to see you free because it's only when we're. Unforgiveness can have a huge issue because it weighs people down. The root of bitterness can get in the bitterness. Sorry, that was me Essex coming in there. The root of bitterness can get in there and that can make a huge difference. But forgiveness, people fly when they really see forgiveness, they are [00:28:00] just, you can tell the difference between people when they have been dealt with by God and they just look lighter and they just have this thing going on.
So if you are struggling with stuff, please talk to your home group leader, talk to someone who you know and you trust. If you don't know who to talk to one of the elders. Talk to somebody who preaches in the church because they're people who are trusted in the church They will point you to people if they can't deal with it.
I just think it's worth saying so Thank you for sharing that ruth. You're
Ollie: welcome and nigel. Maybe as you've mentioned, Abuse there and some of the kind of worst Things I guess that humans can do to each other I think it's probably worth saying just to be absolutely clear on this What the bible doesn't say about forgiveness is what those people did is okay And the bible doesn't say if you're in that situation and you are Being abused you have to just grin and bear it put up with it and pretend that's okay that's not the message of the gospel Jesus hang on [00:29:00] the cross because god takes sin really seriously and There is no part of what we've been saying this evening that is saying the the abuser didn't do anything wrong.
And there's also no part of what we've been saying this evening that says somebody who is a current victim needs to stay there. That's not what scripture says.