The Pondify Podcast

Are there any passages in the Bible that you've avoided or that you find challenging? Or difficult?

Yes, probably. I was gonna say in a general sense I feel like the Bible in general is meant to challenge me. I'd say if I'm not reading the Bible and finding myself challenged to some extent, or wanting to avoid something that's in there.

Then I'm not really reading it. So for instance, right now I'm finding myself continually confronted by the fact that Jesus says so much about money, particularly talks about things in, in concepts of rich and poor, where the poor are always blessed and very often the rich and the powerful of are deeply humbled.

And in our current context, especially in a global context many of us live in quite a lot of comfort. And I look at stories like the Rich Man and Lazarus, where the rich man doesn't seem to, per se, do anything wrong, but he's rich and there's a, and there's a poor man that he walks past every day and suddenly that poor man is e elevated.

And those sorts of things challenge me cuz I go, what do I do of that? And it's easier to sometimes just avoid those. I found I found, I was listening to the sermon in the Mount in the shower the other day and The sermon in the mounts are really interesting cause it's a very complete sermon of Jesus.

But he also talks about loads of things and there's certain parts of it that I feel more comfortable in. Parts which are potentially nonviolent, like I feel very comfortable in that I'm not a particularly violent person, so I can go, yeah, that's great, that's how it should be. But then Jesus will say something else that will, I dunno

like I didn't come, I came with a sword and not to humble not do you know the bit?

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't come, what was it? It's that I didn't come with something, but I came of a sword. Look how, look, how well we know our Bible. Yeah.

University

education does for you. Yeah. There's certainly other passages. There's I'd give you an example.

Like when when Jesus talks about, when you look at something like, That actually in your heart, you've done something. And there are times that you know, when you are angry at your neighbor it's as if you've murdered them. And I'm like, I've been angry at so many people today already, and it's the start of my morning.

It's and it's easy to and when I sit and listen to those passages, it's easy in my head to just try and dismiss them. Yeah. I don't necessarily avoid them, but I go, no, that can't possibly have meant that because I want to be comfortable. Yeah. And I find that. That is more how it goes for me.

There are bits of the Bible, there's whole sways of the Bible which people take offense at. People seem to read the Bible and think, okay, so God's done that, so therefore I can now reject God because all those children were killed and because that city was wiped out and because God sent that plague or the, this God, the God of the Old Testament, they say, must be a hateful, horrible God.

And the God of the New Testament is a fluffy, gentle, slippery kind of God and. None of that's true. Yeah. Because the reality is that God is eternal. We are not, the context, the circumstances we're reading about are different. I find the violence of the Old Testament really hard to handle. Really hard to handle.

I find the whole stuff, one of the things I find really hard to read is, and I found really challenging over years, is the passage where it talks about women not being able to talk in church. Now there's a contextual reading of that. There's a reading of a literal reading of that. There's a reading which comes from the from, so society you are in, there are societies that subjugate women because of that.

There are societies that ignore that. How do you know whether to follow that or not? Do you know what Tom said earlier about the mystery? I don't understand it. I don't understand loads of the Bible, the stuff about sexuality and that a man should not lay with man and woman should not lay with woman. So if somebody has a propensity to love somebody of the same gender, are they supposed to live without love for the whole of their lives?

I find that incredibly challenging, and I do not even pretend to understand that. And believe me, if anybody wants to argue with me about it, I can argue it all and I can talk about it all. And you may think I'm completely off my rocker to think even asking the question about it, but I think one of the things that winds me up most about my tradition of church that I come from, because I am a charismatic evangelical, from a Bible believing background, one of the things that winds me up most is how certain people are that they understand what the Bible says and they don't.

The more I've learned and I've learned a fair share, the more I've learned about the Bible, the more out of my depth I feel and the less certain I am. Jesus understood the Bible. Jesus was God. I'm not, and I am suspicious of anybody who says categorically the Bible means this. Now, I've seen people driven away from faith.

I'll be honest, I think when we get to heaven, we're gonna be really surprised at who's there and who's not. And some of the people who are there are gonna be people who we probably would've kicked out of church because they don't live a holy, righteous life. Do you know what it's about? I don't understand it.

I just do my best. And I think the thing that rescues a lot of the stuff I don't understand is the fruit of the spirit. And it's the fact that Jesus says, you won't be known by your knowledge of scripture. You won't be known as my children by the miracles you do. It doesn't say that at all. He says, you'll be known by your love for one another and you'll be recognized by your fruit, which is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, self-control, and another couple I can't think of as joy and others can't think of off the top of my head.

And I find that incredibly challenging. And if you are a Christian listening to this and you haven't felt challenged by the Bible in the last three or four weeks of reading it, I would suggest you go back and read it again cuz you're not reading it properly.

Something I I like to say to some of the young people who I've spoken to about the Bible recently is that the Bible is a, is an invitation more than a set of instructions.

So talking about the mystery that, that Nigel's been saying that I think since we want to see the Bible as being this place of all the answers, so we look at these passages of mystery like women, gender, sexuality and many more. The relationship of rich and poor. And I think often God is actually inviting us closer in.

With those things. We're not meant to have all the answers. One of, one of my favorite mysteries I give to the youth is how in the story of Cain and Abel Kane kills his brother Abel and his parents are Adam Eve. So maybe there's three people who we've been introduced to in that story. But then Kane says what, when God says you need to go now, Kane says if I find other people and they kill me.

And God doesn't say, don't be silly, there's no other people on the earth. He says if that happens, I will avenge you. And then Kane goes and meets a wife, and I'm like, Hey, you see how the Bible created that problem? If we want to read a, an interpretation, it says the first two people, they're children.

There's no other people. What? The Bible's created that problem. And I think it's not because the Bible's interested in giving you the A, b, c of what to think. Instead it's giving you. An invitation into wrestling with all these truths and wrestling together with them and with God. Because you said that

the Bible is not a set of rules.

The word legalism comes to mind. But there's also the other side to that liberalism. So how do we find a balance when reading the Bible to not be le legalistic but also not fall into liberalism?

Tom and I look at each other cause we dunno who's answering first. Do you wanna answer first or shall

I? I'll give a, I'll give a brief thought and then I'll let you go. And then if I have more I'll say it. I've thought earlier I'd said when we were talking about how do we look at it's written by people and it's written by God.

And I was like, it's so easy to swing one way or the other, to completely look at the people side. It's interesting book of the people wrote a long time ago or be like, no it's literally every single word was written by God. And and that misses a huge amount of depth. And I think that's the same with, I think society often sways into either real legalism.

Or real liberalism. Cuz I think what tends to happen is we either become really hyper focused on we've gotta get it right and then we risk losing grace and mercy and whatever within that. But then often when people try and course correct something in history instead of course correcting by bringing it into balance, they've course corrected by saying, no, we've got to do the complete other thing.

So then, so for me, I think part of the problem is as people, we just have this propensity to continually swing the pendulum to one extreme or the other. Because ultimately it's more comfortable there. It's more it feels more certain to be either very liberal with the Bible or to be very strict and to be somewhere in the middle where you're trying to balance those two things.

It involves mystery, involves nuance, and I think it actually involves a risk of being wrong that is quite uncomfortable.

I think extreme liberalism and extreme legalism are not actually dissimilar. It's very interesting that what extreme Legalists do is they say, oh, I understand this, so that's the truth.

So therefore we can only do that. And what liberals say is that can't be the truth, so therefore we can only do that. And the reality, I think, is that the Bible's written by God and our relationship is with God. When God talks about himself in scripture that I can trust when somebody goes out and murders or kills a pile of people because they're in the wrong city at the wrong time, I can't judge that according to me.

I have to judge it according to God. But if the Bible says that God loves us with an everlasting love, If my interpretation of what has happened to this city is, oh that means that God can't possibly be a God of love. That's my issue, not God's, because what I can trust is who God is. I can't trust how I read the Bible.

I studied when I studied scripture and I studied theology. My denomination background is very liberal, so my denominational background is the United Reform Church, which is incredibly liberal in lots of different ways. And I went through college studying with people who thought I was a crazy, radical, legalistic, theological madman, because I said things like, oh, Jesus did actually rise from the dead.

And radical things like that. And the reality is, I can only be judged on my kindness. And my love of them. And if people disagree with me and if I read scripture, I can only be judged on how I relate to God. God is God. I have to follow God. The Bible is just the most consistent representation of the character and person of God that we have because my mood changes my character and understanding of God and there are so many different things.

So I'm, that's a complicated way around of saying it is. I think I absolutely agree with Tom and I, to be honest. Tom and I have spent many hours drinking coffee and more often than not, beer and discussing the Bible, and it always comes back to the Bible, and both of us have got things in there.

I don't wanna put words into his mouth, but we are so uncomfortable with some things and we disagree on some things and we agree on other things. And do you know what Jesus loves Tom? Therefore, I love Tom. Jesus loves everybody. Jesus loves Schlaak, who was the original liberal. I love Schlaak. It's just the way it is. And I don't think that's answered any of that question.

So our big question this evening was, what does it mean to love scripture and live by it? We talked about scripture. We've talked about how you read it. Do you love scripture? Do you,

do you, Tom, do you? Yeah, I do.

Do you, Matt?

I don't think I always did. I don't think I always did love scripture, because we've talked about some of these things that, that challenge. I think some of them worry me as well, the sheep and the goats. That's a tough one. The thing that, the one that always comes to mind when I think of, the challenges of scripture is the parable of the sower.

And I read the seeds that are choked up by the weeds and I look at my life and where all my time goes and I think, oh, am I a bit too wrapped up in the world? I don't always love that. But then I read what God thinks about me and I read about what he's done for me, what he's doing for me.

And so some of the things that he says and confronts me on and challenges me on they, they do feel difficult at times and they do make me think, oh, maybe I shouldn't keep reading, but I do. And I think, I love God. I love Jesus. I'm so in love with Jesus. I'm so grateful for everything that he has done and is doing for me.

And therefore, if I love him, I'm gonna do what he says. And I am gonna spend time in the word. And yeah I suppose in a long way round, do I love scripture? Do I, yeah.

I find so I like to have, I like to have my own big ideas. So I I can I can often stray off into maybe about, about just about anything.

I think I've often been quite inspired by Noel's love of scripture actually, cuz Noel often Noel's very steadfast and consistent in loving scripture. Which I think you, do you wanna talk about me? Yeah.

You are the only Noel in the room. Noel

say I do love scripture. What do I wanna say about how I love scripture?

I just think it's the best story that there is. I think it's the best story that's ever been told. I also think I read this quote the other day from Michael Cleos actually, and he said that the Bible is Jesus. The heart of Jesus made available to us on paper which I thought was really good. I think that's why I love it because I get to know about Jesus.

It's a really, I have a straightforward answer. I just love it for me. So it's easy for me to say.

That's good. And like you, like no one always brings you back almost to Hey, Tom, but what does scripture say? And as we talk about that, I think I, we never come out of a question like that of what does scripture say going.

That was unhelpful. Which I think is a sign, like for me I think the reason I love scripture isn't so much to do of how I personally feel about everything that's written in it. I think there's a cliche that gets talked a lot about how you don't read scripture read you.

But I think there's a truth to that where scripture, like the Bible is such a, such an incredibly beautiful commentary, often on o obviously on our relationship with God, but just on, on also on us. And who we are by nature. That, and convicts us in so many different ways. And as Nigel said earlier, like people have studied it for centuries and are still mining gold out of it are still finding so many things.

So I think just from the level of. On an academic sense, something to study, something to think about, something to really get interested in terms of history. And it's so much fun in terms of how it, like convicts me in terms of how I live my own life on that kind of, on that level as well.

And even just on the simple level of kind of the stories themselves are exciting and enjoyable and thoughtful and would make amazing movies and TV shows that people should do more of. To me there's just so many levels to which I think it's hard not to be captivated by scripture.

I,

I love the Bible. I love, I like to think the thing that I do more than anything else is cogitate and think on stuff. What's that mean? Cogitate means think it's just another word for it. Do you know what a thesaurus is? Okay. It's a small animal dinosaur. Yeah, that's right. No I love to cogitate and think I spend time meditating on stuff and scripture is ideal for that.

As Tom was speaking and actually as Noel was speaking, and I completely get what Noel's saying. I agree with all of that. The thing is that people find scripture difficult and faith in God difficult because they feel like it limits them. But in every worthwhile human endeavor, there has to be limitation.

If you think about pottery, okay, so effectively you can do whatever you like with a lump of clay. You can genuinely do whatever you like with a lump of clay, and you can do the same with faith, really. You can decide on whatever you like. You can shape it in any way you want, but the best way to make pottery is to put it on a wheel and to put.

Even pressure on things and to learn how to shape something. And there are methods and rules which you don't have to follow cuz you don't. You don't have to follow 'em. You can do whatever you like with the clay. But if you want to make a nice pot, you use them. And what they do is they shape you, they shape the clay.

And that's like us in scripture. God shapes us. God makes God's will is to turn us into Jesus. We are called to be like Christ. That's what the Bible says. We're called to be like Jesus. And that's what the Bible does. It shapes us to be like Jesus, to be after God's heart, to be speaking God's truth. What I find most difficult about scripture and about people in the way they relate to scripture is how people read what they want.

They come to the Bible with a preconception that says, this is true. The Bible proves it's true here, and this bit that says that I'm not actually completely right. That bit I'm gonna ignore. I find that really difficult because mainly I find it so flipping uncomfortable to read the Bible because there's so much in me that's not good.

And not right, and not shaped like Jesus. And I read the Bible and as, as Tom says, the Sermon on the mounts a great example of that. I read the Bible and I think blessed are the peacemakers. That's really hard because let's be honest, I do tend to tour quite a lot of trouble when I walk into a room and ask questions.

Am I, there's so much stuff I'm not sure about, but God is shaping me and the Bible is a major part of that, and I love God.

Do you guys have a scripture that, that does shape your life? A life verse. I've heard it. I'll, I'm gonna go first. My, my life verse is Matthew nine, verse nine, which says, and I'm not reading it from a Bible cause I've memorized it.

Woo-hoo. I can vouch for him. Jesus saw Matthew sitting in a tax collector's booth. He said, follow me. So Matthew got up and followed him and that when I read that verse the night after I became a Christian, I knew that was it. I was sold out for Jesus. And that's what I'm gonna continue to do.

I know it was Matthew, the tax collector, but it's for Matthew, me, Matt. Yeah,

I think I've got a life verse, which is a verse for what I'm for, and I have another one that's made huge differences to me, which is a passage. So my life verse is actually in Colossians chapter one at verse 28. It says, I proclaim Himn admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom so that we may present, present everyone perfect in Christ.

To this end, I labor struggling with all this energy, which so powerfully works in me. That is my calling, that is my purpose. And I have I, there are times when I can't do it, but when I do it, oh, I feel like I'm doing what God wants me to do. But the verse which. Has made a huge impact on me. It's in, it's actually Isaiah chapter six, the beginning of Isaiah chapter six, which is the calling passage of Isaiah.

And he comes into the throne room of God and he sees the glory of God and the angels and the, the seraphim singing and the train of the robe and all the rest of that. And what Isaiah says is, woe is me. I've been undone. I'm a man of unclean lips from a people of unclean lips, and I've sinned the glory of the Lord.

And that's how I feel when I come into God's presence. And then God sends one of his angels with a coal that makes him pure, which I find. Just blows me away. That's good.

I don't have a life first, so I'm easy. I don't have one. You love Bible. I have passages that I love and that I come back to. I really love the book of James, just generally.

James, chapter one is one of my favorite chapters in the Bible. There are several psalms that I love, especially the first, I think the first 30 ish psalms I love and have read again and again. Yeah so I have certain passages that I really enjoy and really love, but I don't have a life verse.

Maybe I will at some point, but right now I don't.

Yeah. I remember back in the Bethel days people would talk about what's their verse for the year, or what's the word that God's giving them? And I used to feel slightly impatient with stuff like that because not, I don't think God could give that, but almost to me felt like.

Like getting a, having a verse that I live by for the sake of it. I honestly think there's different things that have shaped me at different times. When I was growing up, God gave me a word based on the sur parable of the sur and the seeds. And I think really showed me that like it's for me to dig my roots in deep.

God's not just randomly scattered us into a predetermined place, but actually he was calling me to dig myself deep. But then, and that, that shaped me for a long time in my teenage years. But probably in the last three to four years, the verse that stuck out to me more and more so is in Amos where it says, I'll paraphrase this cause I can't remember off my heart basically says I hate your.

Sacraments, your, I don't know your offerings and I don't want them anymore, but instead let justice for all like a river. And I think it's cuz it, it speaks to me and where we're at right now in our current climate. I'm becoming more and more convinced that God is not impre, let's say God.

God doesn't actually need all of the things we think we need to give him. God actually demands justice and for us to live that out on the earth. Pray, Matthew I think it's Matthew 5 44. Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Has been on my lips much more than in this season of, than this season of life than say John three 16 that we talked about earlier.

And I think that's the beauty of scripture again, is that in different moments and in different climates and in different stages of life, we need certain parts. When I was trying to figure out. My personal beliefs. I read one Corinthians again and again, and I loved reading the story of the meat sacrifice to idols.

And I took that as an analogy for Tom. If you what the movies and the music and the other random things that you do there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Just there's there's nothing inherently wrong with eating meat, but the thing I'm asking you is are you going to love people?

Are you going to be proud in what you think is true? Love builds up. Truth puffs, puffs up, and that massively shaped lots of decisions for my personal life. But these days, as I become more convicted in those, the verses I just mentioned about justice have shaped me more and been more in my lips because I'm like, I'm confident in who I am following Jesus, but I see him really caring about, This stuff out here and now that's where my focus is often when I read the Bible.

So all of that is to say, for me, it's changed continually.

So what would you guys say to someone who wants to know the Bible better?

I would say one of the most important things you can do, I think if you want to know the be Bible better, love the Bible better live by the Bible better is actually to study. And by that I don't necessarily mean get your commentary out, get your, get the Hebrew out. I more mean find other people who are passionate about the Bible and find ways to let what they think of the Bible.

Also inspire you. Like, whenever I feel dry in the Bible, I think I, it takes going to a sermon from Tim Keller, a sermon from some of my other favorite people. And I feel, and I, and it sends me on a train of thought. And I also think, the reason I say that is that knowing the story of the Bible, knowing some of the context of the Bible, having some of those really basic kind of ideas like the Bible project do have incredible videos that summarize books of the Bible and summarize the story of the Bible.

I think as that it becomes less alien. And I think one of the most alienating things we can do is say to somebody, all you need to do is just read it. And without accompanying them with some of those tools that help 'em to also understand it. Cuz otherwise, I think you can sit there and go, is this just me or is this not quite resounding or is this not quite making sense?

So that would be my biggest advice is don't be afraid to let other people in and other people's thoughts shape you in how you read.

I know this won't surprise you, but I've got loads of different bits of advice. I think one thing that you could do is find a version of the Bible that you like.

Yeah. One of the best, if not the best translation of the Bible is actually the new RSV because it's as close as it can possibly be in English to the original text. It's so difficult to read, it's just not good English. I find the English really clangy, it's a good word, cloggy. And I don't read the RSV new r rsv.

My bible I go to is the new international version, which isn't the greatest version of the Bible, but I find it so easy to read and if I wanna look for something else, then I do have other versions. If you have you version on your. Phone, the app you version. Brilliant, absolutely brilliant because you can get pretty much any version of the Bible on there and you can compare the versions.

That's amazing. Second thing I'd say is having heard what Tom's just said, I would still say read it. Don't come to me and complain that you don't know the Bible as well as me. If you've not read it, just read it and don't read it in a precious way. I still, I'm so thankful to my friend Jim Graham, who said, read the Bible you, you want to, because there's so much good stuff in there, and if you find stuff you're interested in, then have a look at that.

If you find there's a book in the Bible as you're reading it through which you find really hard to read, that's okay. You don't have to, it's not a, you're not sinning by finding it hard to read. You're just finding it hard to read. I tell you, if you are a new Christian, don't read Lamentations. You'd be an idiot to read Lamentations.

It's so depressing. And Jeremiah's not that far behind. If you're a new Christian, read something full of joy and wonder, but it doesn't mean you won't one day read Lamentations and Jeremiah and think, wow, that speaks to me in a new way. Another thing I would say is find other people. Be in a small group.

Be in a community group, talk to people. Find people who know the Bible better than you, and chat to them about it. Find people who know the Bible less than you and chat to them about it. Just chew it over, discuss it, think it through. As Tom said earlier, hopefully it's made the edit, but Tom said earlier it people didn't read in the past.

The way they talked about the Bible is they talked about it. The Bible is actually a written version of an oral tradition, which are stories that are told. Jesus taught his disciples by talking to them. We talk together, find people you like and chat about the Bible with them. It's just such a good way to do it.

And I would also say enjoy it. That's good. You can enjoy it. You are allowed to enjoy the Bible. It is not. Taking branches and whipping yourself on the back. If I don't hurt, then I haven't read the Bible properly. It's about this is God's word. God loves you. God is saying to you that he loves you.

And I find that absolutely phenomenal. And I think finally what I'd say is exactly what Tom said is to find preachers you like. Right now I'm listening to John Mark Comer. I think he's absolutely excellent, really enjoying it. I went through a phase where I listened to Mark Driscoll, who is quite aggressive by the way he preaches, but actually he's very vigorous the way he looks at the scriptures.

I find that really interesting. And here's another thing I would say to everybody is you are allowed to ask questions if you find something difficult. I promise you, you will not be sent screaming to hell if you ask a question about it. Jesus was asked questions all the time, asked questions. You can pray about it and ask God, and you can ask people who know better.

I would say, take your time. The numbers and the verses and the chapters, they weren't in the original text, and so you don't have to read it chapter by chapter. I find it really in, in some versions, there's some translations of the Bible. There are little headings in bold, and sometimes I will just read between the headings and that could be 10 verses, or it could be more than that or less than that.

But actually if there's something in there that I want to chew over, I will read that and I'll sometimes reread it again just to see if I've got what I can from it. As well.

Yeah, I would say to, I would pray to God and ask him to help you love it. If I'm honest, I would just ask him to give you grace for it. Give you grace for reading it, even if it's just for a season like, God, help me to really be in this for the next however long so that I can get into it. Something else I was remembering is I remember a season that I went through where I wanted to love the Bible, but I was loving the Bible a ton, but I just was in this season and I would bring it everywhere with me.

So if I was got invited to dinner at someone's house, I would bring my Bible, or if I was going to Target, or you guys don't know what Target is shop. Yeah.

B and m.

If I was going to a, if I was going to a shop, I would bring my Bible. Everywhere I went, I would just bring my Bible. And it wasn't a holy thing.

It wasn't me, giving myself a pat on the back, but it was just, I want to love this. I want to read this. I want to fall in love with this. And so I'm just gonna bring it with me everywhere I go. And that's what I did. I only did it for a season. I, and I loved it. And so I think I would just encourage you to really ask God to help you fall in love with it and give you grace for it, and really give yourself over to it, even if it's just for time while you really get into it.

Let God change you. Don't just have the attitude of, oh, I don't get this. I don't like reading this and it's not gonna work for me. Allow God to change your heart towards it. I think if you've given the space to do that, he will. So

I'm gonna end just by reading our piece of scripture that we got here.

Again, that Noel read earlier it says in two Timothy three 14 to 16. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of because you know those from who you learned it and how from instant infancy you have known the holy scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.