The Pondify Podcast

I think one of the things I wanted to ask, you mentioned,, but I think it's worth talking about, as you said, you pray a lot in tongues.

Mm-hmm. Now I know exactly what that means, and I know Matt knows exactly what that means, but what about all those people that don't? What do you mean by prey in tongues?

When I was filled with the Holy Spirit, I found out or was taught that one of the gifts of the spirit is speaking in other languages. And I thought, what on earth sort of a, a lunatic asylum?

Have I joined, you know, this kind of thing all these people speaking in the weirdest languages and, and stuff, and, groanings as well, you know. So, but once I'd got over that bit, God gave me a language and, I started to use it very, very haltingly at first, but it started to sort of click that this, this is his gift to me and I need to use it.

It's for our edification. Isn't that right? It's somewhere in Corinthians. Yes. , it edifies us. It builds us

out.

So tongues edifies us and prophecy Edifies. Edifies

in the church. The church, yeah. Out of this, God does pray through, through us, through our, as we open our mouth, speak in our, in our, in our language, that He, he is praying for people.

And sometimes when I'm praying for somebody who, who, um, you know, when we were doing the transformation prayer team, you hadn't got a clue how to pray, what to pray. Where is this person coming from? But you pray in tongues for, for them for could be five minutes and suddenly you get a. Strong impression of where you're to go and how and what you're to pray.

It's this thing of becoming more and more aware of who lives in me, father, son and Holy Spirit. And you establish that fact and that's a given. And out of that indwelling of the trinity comes this ability to speak in a, another language. And it's our language, it's for us.

Can I ask a direct question? Just a couple of very direct questions. Jack, do you understand your language that God's given you in tongues? No.

Have you got better at praying it as time's gone by? Yes or yes? Perhaps. Maybe the better have you become more natural. Feeling it's more natural to so, oh yeah. Yes. Absolutely.

I was just simply going to say how it started for me speaking in tongues. Um, I remember. That when I was baptized, I was filled with a Holy Spirit and I knew something was going on. It felt different. And someone said to me, okay, you can praying tongues. And I said, what do you mean?

And so I was driving to work in the car one day and I said to God, okay, no one's listening. It's just you and me. I wanna start praying in tongues. I said, I'm gonna open my mouth and just start talking, and I want to be praying in tongues. And I just started talking and it just came out like a waterfall of words that sounded just like gibberish.

I had no idea what I was saying at all. But it felt great. There was something like a spiritual river flowing out of me, I remember at the time, and it, it felt as though I was doing something really good, but it sounded like nonsense. So that was the early beginnings really. And then as I sort of started to speak in tongues more sometimes on a Sunday morning, I would just feel it.

Building up in me like a kettle boiling, like a pressure cooker. And some Sundays I feel I just have to speak it out. And sometimes I'm able to give the person at the front some warning. Um, other times I do take the law into my own hands or I haven't done this for a while now, and just speak out what I feel God's saying.

And then there's a pause and then someone asks for an interpretation. So then the interpretation comes. So from my gibberish, powered and Fueled by the Holy Spirit, um, an interpretation comes and there might be several, there might be two or three different interpretations. Um, in my spirit, I know which one is right.

Which she is rather strange. Normally all two or three are pretty much spot on. Some are more refined than others because, you know, we do speak and prophesy part.

You've just reminded me of, uh, something that happened to me a couple of years ago because you, you talk about interpretation of, uh, uh, of tongues and, um, I, I didn't think that I had the gift of interpretation, , of tongues.

Um, in fact, I was adamant, not that I didn't, um, but there was, there was a time in a church meeting where, um, I can't remember who it was. Somebody got up, went up the front, and I just knew what, , this godi was. I, I knew it and God told me. You know it. And I said, no, I don't do this.

And the next thing I knew, Peter Vincent tapped me on the shoulder and said, God's told me that you've got the interpretation. And I, and I, Audi audibly said, oh no. So he gave me the mic and I, I gave the interpretation. And afterwards I, I, I felt re I felt really embarrassed. Um, I felt embarrassed because I, I hadn't stepped out.

But, but God clearly wanted that interpretation to come through. It was, it was really funny cuz after that, um, uh, at the end of the meeting, um, as I was leaving, Barbara Bird came up to me and she said, oh man, I'm so glad you gave that interpretation, uh, of that, of that tongue because, um, God told me. You had the interpretation and I thought there was absolutely no way I was getting outta that meeting without God's sake, making me do that, um, as well.

And, and it, it's, it's funny isn't it? Just how, how, how God speaks us and just surprises us. I know I've been asking the questions, how do you hear from God? And it is different for everyone. For, for me it is God's quite direct with me. It's normally Matt do this or it's Matt stop.

In fact, I'm, again, I'm reminded of another, uh, another time when, when Steve, you, you got up and gave a word about it, was about traffic cones and I think God, God teaches us, in prayer. He, he teaches us actually, That he doesn't, he doesn't need us sometimes to get , what he wants across to his people.

I remember I had the exact picture that you had and, and God said, go, and I said, no, I don't think this is right. And he used you, Steve, to give the same picture. And I, I, I, at first I felt, oh, I felt devastated. I, I was like, oh no, I've let God down here. And God just said, no, haven't. I've just, I'm just showing you that I speak to you and this is the way I speak to you.

And it may seem strange talking about traffic cones and other strange things, other strange words. But still I want to talk to my people. I want to talk to, to them corporately, and I want to talk to them individually.

Yeah. I've had a very similar experience, Matt. Um, I had a picture in, in the meeting once here of, um, some buds bursting into bloom and, um, it was representing New Life and New Beginnings and, um, it was a beautiful picture of new things coming into Bloom with new life.

And I thought, Hmm, what should I do with that? I think I'll hold onto it. I I'm not gonna go up there. I'm not gonna say anything. Anyway, someone else came up to the front and said, I've got this picture of Bud's opening of New Blooms representing New Life, and I thought, blow, that was my one, so I know exactly how you feel.

Yeah. So I said, okay, God, next time I'm gonna get in there first. So

does everybody speak in tongues? Is a Christian,

I think everybody who is filled with the Holy Spirit biblically has the capacity to speak in tongues. Whether they use it or not is a personal choice, whether they've been taught to use it or not. again, not everybody has to speak in tongues. It's not obligatory. But, um, yeah, I feel that people perhaps have the option if they feel the Holy Spirit.

I'm not, I don't wanna sound like I'm telling you off, but I don't agree with that. And the reason I don't agree with that is I think everybody has the capacity to speak in tongues. Just like everybody has the capacity to do miracles, but not everybody does. And it's not because they don't engage with it.

It's because sometimes God doesn't give that gift to people. Scripturally, it doesn't say everybody speaks in tongues. Okay. Anywhere. It does, there's, there's a huge argument amongst the Pentecostal churches. Um, in fact, the reason that you have Elam Church, uh, Derek would be able to give me a better understanding of this.

But the reason you have the Elam Church and the Assemblies of God Church is that they are both actually from the same root of the Pentecostal Church. In essence, though, and I dunno which one is, one of them believes that the speaking in tongues is the sign of the Holy Spirit, and the other one believes that it's a sign of the Holy Spirit.

And on such things, church splits a bill. So it doesn't matter whether somebody speaks in tongues or not, because what matters is they're communing that they, they're hearing from God. And I think. Yeah. So I, I hope that doesn't sound like I'm, I'm disagreeing or anything. No, it's fine. That's kind of, I think it's such a big thing to talk about.

So we talked about tongues and, and then we, we kind of morphed into the interpretation of tongues, and then we started talking about prophecy, which as I understand it is, is, is it a form of prayer? What would you say about that?

Right. That, that's a very big question. Um, prophecy is about hearing from God. So you can hear from God when you are praying. You can hear from God when you ask him out on the street. Um, you can hear from God for direction for the church, it's, it's about God speaking to his people and. Helping to guide, direct, to strengthen, to edify, to comfort.

Um, but at the end of the day, when God speaks to us, it will be for our strengthening, our encouragement, our comfort as per Corinthians. So it's part of a lot of aspects of church life in that it percolates through the whole lot. It's not just, um, connecting with prayer, it's connected with hearing God for direction and hearing God.

Um, for us personally, for the whole church. For individuals, for people who know Jesus, for people who don't know Jesus, it's God's guidance for us.

I mean, I, I would say cuz I, I'm really Steven, I are both really interested in prophecy and, and now that works. I think it's important to, to note that tongues isn't one of the fivefold ministry, but in the, in the New Testament, there's the fivefold ministry, which is apostles, prophets, uh, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

And they are means by which the church is directed and grows and, and strategizes and does all those other lovely modern terms as well. But prophecy is clearly part of God's plan for the church. To hear God's voice clearly, and my experience as a prophet, prophetic, I mean, with Steve sitting here, there have been several times in the last few years that I've known Steve, that he's given me words, which have just my brain and my prayer life have been so chugged up and confused that I've not been able to hear God's voice clearly.

And Steve's come up and said in his lovely voice, I really think Nigel,

do I sound like that? No, not really.

I'm not Michael. I, no, yeah, I'm not a good impressionist, but I, I really, I really feel Nigel that God is saying this for you and it's like, oh, thank you. It's like a big, bright light's been shn into my crazy.

Twirling black brain. And that's really important. I think that's why prophecy is so important. Again, in the same way tongues, everybody has the potential to prophesy cuz everyone has the potential to hear from God. Everyone does hear from God and you don't actually have to be a Christian to hear from God.

The Bible's full of examples of people hearing from God before they even came to faith and says church history. But it's such an important thing. So Steve, I just wanna say Steve, thank you for those times. You've done that cuz it, and there are others in the church who's done that. I know Jack's done it as well at once when we did a prayer ministry thing and that was amazing.

And that's so important.

So we've, talked about, hearing from God, um, and I'm interested to, to ask, are there times when you've prayed and you haven't heard from God? And if so, What did you do?

Yeah. It's, it's, it's such a personal thing is, isn't it? I mean, because I'd say we've all had unanswered prayer,

It kind of is confusing, especially when I was a younger Christian, you know, when there isn't an answer, when that prayer or many, or se several prayers aren't answered possibly the way we want them to be, you know?

I thi I think personally, I look back on the way God has provided for me and my children and for my business, especially from very, very small beginnings. I would say God has answered most of my prayers, but there's been some that haven't been answered yet.

You know, my, my two boys aren't believers yet. It's that kind of thing, , personally, I don't think I can pontificate on that subject cuz it's, it's almost each person will have a different story. Um, but, but I, I know that I've been, I suppose around the block, uh, long enough to know that, that God, Loves me and cares for me and provides for me incredibly, yeah, in a way beyond, you know, anything I can ask or think sometimes.

And yet there are some things that are not quite there yet, and I don't know why. ,

have there been times though, when you've prayed and God has given you an answer and the answer has been no?

Golly, I can't think of any at the moment, but I'm sure there were. That's all I can say.

Um, I mean in once is I, I'm aware that's a leading question. What about you, Steve? It wasn't

a, a blank No written in, what do you call it? Neon lights.

I think, um, there have been occasions when I've asked God for something, And it's gone a bit quiet at the other end. And, uh, I often take that as, actually, maybe I haven't, I'm not quite asking for the right thing, you know, so I've had that experience. But, um, following on what, what Jack was saying, I've had occasions when I've prayed something for somebody and something different to what I've prayed has actually been answered.

So there was a guy many years ago who was dying basically. And I used to go and pray with him and I was praying that, um, he would get over this illness and that he would recover, but he didn't, he did actually pass away, but he gave his life to Jesus before he died. Mm. So, Maybe Jesus thought this is a much better prayer.

You should be praying than, um, praying for him to stay alive, although who am might to, to judge that. But it was just, um, a different way of the prayer being answered. I guess.

I suppose you've, um, moved the, the, the topic on probably unwittingly, but you, you, you talked about praying for others. I've been, as we've been talking, uh, so far it's kind of been like what, what we've prayed, you know, for us. But you, you've just mentioned about praying for, for others. how do we go about praying for others?

Like, I, I know there's, there's no formula, but is there an etiquette with it? Do you have to be trained to do it? You tell me.

Well, as you've said, there is no hard and fast way. Um, it could be simply putting your hand on someone's shoulder on a Sunday morning because they're having a hard time and they say, can you pray for me?

And you just pray into the thing that, uh, they're concerned about. And it might take a few seconds, it might be something a bit more in depth like Jack was talking about, um, about transforming prayer. I can remember on one particular occasion, I wasn't intending to pray for anybody and God gave me a picture of a rope with a knot in it.

And I said to God, okay, I've, I can see the picture. What do you want me to do with this picture? And he said, there's a lady over at the front there. I want you to go and pray with her and tell her about your picture. So I went over to this lady at the front of the church, never seen her before. I think she was a visitor to the church.

And I said, excuse me. Um, I dunno if this is gonna mean anything to you, but I've got this picture of a piece of rope with a knot in it. Does that mean anything to you? And she said, well, actually yes it does cuz I've just been diagnosed with a deep vein thrombosis and I've got this blockage in my, in my leg.

I said, well, I think I'm supposed to pray for you. And she said, yeah, I think you are. So I prayed for her. It was just a very short prayer. Nothing, nothing dynamic. Just took a few seconds and she said, thank you very much. And I said, nice to meet you. And walked away. Anyway, on Monday morning, , I got a phone call from the office manager here and said, um, I've just heard a phone call from a lady who is describing someone that sounds like you, who prayed for her on Sunday morning, and she fell into the office and said, could you tell the person who prayed for me, um, that I went to the doctors this morning and that deep vein thrombosis isn't there anymore.

Wow. Wow. So I wasn't intending to pray for anybody, but God had different plans. So that's just an an example really. It

sounds to me like, like you, you've, you, you can have people request, so people might request for you to pray, but sometimes God's gonna direct you to, to specific people. Yes, yes. Um, uh, again, I suppose really it comes down to having an attitude of obedience in that not, not just, you know, we, we talked about pausing, listening, um, uh, for what God says, but, but actually, Stepping out when he tells us to, um, uh, as well I is.

Has that been your experience, Jack?

Uh, I think it's just been open and willing coming to say to a meeting on a Sunday or something and, my heart is open and willing, God tends to say that person over there or whatever, you, you get a, a weird picture of somebody being pushed in a wheelbarrow when they were five, you know, by their dad and what's that all about?

You know? But it's it just as, as Steve just said, it does. It does register with people and, you end up with people in floods of tears because of a childhood memory of something like that. But it's for all of us, it's not just for the special few, but it's, if we, if, if we walk around supermarkets, wherever, churches on a Sunday with, with that heart, Lord, how can I, who do you want me to bless today?

Who do you want? I want to, Lord I'm yours. Take me, use me. I'm, I'm open to it. Whatever you've got for me. I mean I had to overcome years of diabolical, shyness to get to this place cuz I was, you know, I thought I was absolutely useless at anything like this. And um, you know, it was just one gentleman in the church.

We said, come on, come with me. And watch what I do and pray when you feel ready. And I thought that was just, this was 10, 12 years ago and it just totally changed my life. You know, I wouldn't have said boo to a goose before then, and I just, I won't say I saw how easy it was, but I just saw how natural and friendly and just.

You know, we have the answers and it's almost crazy not to want to share, to give the, give it away, you know? I

think it's, I think it's worth mentioning as well that it doesn't have to be that scary. One of the things that's really important about our life as a church is our house groups. And being in house group, not only does it help you build relationships with other people, but my experience of House Group, and I know it's not the only experience of House Group, but when stuff goes wrong in life and you share group time with people, you get to the point where the first thing you do at your house group is you say, I've got a job interview on Wednesday.

Could you guys pray for me, please? Yeah. And you start to rely on and seek the prayers of others. And I think it's really important to know that we are allowed to ask for prayer. Hmm. And for me, as somebody who is discovered how much more introverted I am than I've imagined asking for prayer, I find really, really difficult.

Cuz I think Why on earth would anyone want to pray for me? Oh, I've got such a little thing to go on. Oh, you know? But the reality is, and I know if somebody comes up to me and says, Nigel, will you pray for me? I say, of course, I'll pray for you. So why wouldn't they do that to me? And it's a matter of, it's almost a matter of, you know, when it says treat others as you expect to be treated, it's also, um, give others the same respect you would give to them.

Yeah. Because it's a matter of that opportunity. You mentioned something in that, which a couple of times, which I think is worth just touching on, if that's okay. Which is Transforming prep. So as a church, we've had a ministry for a number of years, which is called Transforming Prayer, which I know is based on the sozo.

For those that do know stuff like this, the sozo stuff. Jack, could you give us some idea what, cuz you were involved with transforming prayer, weren't you? Yeah,

it was, we did it for about eight years and, um, from Humble beginnings with, with Colin and a few others. It's difficult to describe, but it's, it's 80% Soza, which is, a Bethel church.

a way of praying. It's a model, isn't it? A method. It's a model, yeah, exactly. For praying for wounded people who, need help with their emotions or their past. Memories sometimes, it was a very powerful tool.

How did it work?

So, so I'm assuming in, in future we will do transforming for again, cuz it's just such a good tool. Yeah. What was it

A person would come, come in and we would listen to the Holy Spirit for three, four minutes. Sometimes they would say something or, but the whole thing was led by the Holy Spirit.

Um, it wasn't counseling, it wasn't, you know, prayer ministry in a, in a sense, as, as we would probably typically understand that. We would just see pictures. God would open unlock doors that this, that maybe had been closed for years and it was just, it was so sort of new and refreshing.

So different to anything I'd been involved in before as, because it was just learning to listen, we've said it before, to the Holy Spirit and just seeing what he did it was just very, very refreshing. And pe people always went away, blessed. , one night was somebody in this room who shall remain nameless, uh, was, was seeing in technical pictures.

And I nodded off halfway through this thing, and when I woke after about five minutes, this person had, wow, this is fantastic. God's amazing. And I was, I, I nodded off for it all the way through it.

It was, uh, I know

any

of that. We, I do apologize

if, if I might, if I might jump on the back of your, your answer , and just give my experience of transformation. Prayer. It's, uh, just God unlocks stuff. Stuff that, has bound you up and you don't even know about it.

It's listening to God and partnering in prayer along side people who, who God just wants to free from, from that stuff. Um, and, you know, this could be stuff that's happened to you as an adult. Or as a teenager or as a child, and God just wants to undo this stuff. Undo. A lot of it is, I found, was undoing the lies that, that you believe about yourself and actually seeing yourself the way that God sees you and allowing God to actually say what he wants to say about you.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm quite aware that, that sounds very impractical. My experience of transforming prayer was very, just to be very practical about it is, is I went into a room, there were two people there who were trained in that form of ministry, which basically meant they were trained to shut up and let God speak.

Which, uh, is that fair to say that? Yep. Good, fair. Very fair. And uh, I sat there, they said, what do you wanna pray about? I said it. And they said, well, let's just listen to God. And I had pictures and they had pictures and thoughts and it just, Somehow just moved around so that God was putting his finger on bits and pieces that needed dealing with.

Yeah. Yeah. And I came out of the room feeling lighter. Mm-hmm. Now it didn't solve all my problems. Mm-hmm. And it's not a cure all. And there are some people who listen to this and will have heard it's a Bethel method and they will have said, well, I'm not listening to that. Then I just want to say to you, brother or sister, grow up and have a listen.

And have a reader because it is just a method of prayer. Yeah. But it was really helpful. Mm-hmm. And it's a method that works outside of that context as well. Yeah. Because you don't have to say, what do you want prayer about? And then just talk at God about it. You can listen to God too.

It's dealing with the wounds and lies of our past and doesn't sound much to those two words, but it's, as Matt says, it's, it's a, it's a big part of the things that are, that weigh us down and keep us from moving on it's not like a broken leg or that heals in two months or something.

It's, it can be like a r sack we're carrying through life for, for years and years and, and go, you know, God has been incredible. I think that summarizes it really. , and sometimes as the team, you really didn't know how to pray, what to pray.

And just again, praying in tongues just seemed to shift to things and break through things that were just holding this wonderful person down and back. And, uh,

you know, and very often people, when they've been a Christian for a while, they don't actually need somebody to sit with them and say, well, do you know the things you are thinking are wrong?

And we should pray into that. What they need is somebody to lead them into a space where God can speak. Yeah. Because God does speak.

.

When you write down what God has said during the evening and hand it to them at the end, they think, wow, really.

So we, we, we've been talking about, um, hearing from Jesus.

But I think one, one of the, the big important questions is what Jesus said about prayer. So from, from your own experience, like and from your own Bible reading, what has, what does Jesus say about prayer?

Well, he taught us how to pray and, um, he gave us the Lord's Prayer, as we all know, and sometimes I will use the Lord's Prayer to start praying, but I don't normally get much further than Hello be their name.

Yeah, be your name because it's such an awesome line. How great is our God? How hallowed is his name? But I think also thinking about this in the Bible, Jesus, by his actions, gives us examples how to pray. And one that springs to mind is that he used to go off to lonely places on his own to pray.

And I think that's meant to be an example of us as well. One way in which we can pray is to spend personal time with him, just one to one. He used to commune with God on those occasions. We com commune with Jesus Holy Spirit God. So yeah, by, he used to lead by example as well as by what he said.

I think my experience is the same as you, Steve. Like, I, I wake up on a in the morning and that's how I start my, my, my prayer. But you're right. I think that the, the, the minute you start. Praising God. And it's interesting, we talk about praising God because, and we could start moving and, and start talking about worship and all these other different ways, , that we can pray.

But ul ultimately, that's what worship is, isn't it? It's, it's glorifying God. It's it's hall by be thy name, hall, be thy name, hall, be thy name again and again, and again, and again and again. And we're made for that, right? We're we, we're made to worship. Yes, we're made to, to, to praise God. Is does that mean that, that, that prayer is praise?

Does

that make sense? I think within our prayers, there are elements of praise because when we pray, holy Spirit in us is stirred and. Once we are stirring the Holy Spirit in us, whether we are praying, whether we are praising, we're in communication with Jesus. And so they also to blend into one sometimes, don't they?

We can be praising God and praying to him and telling him how wonderful he is, and maybe that's a prayer as well, and we are praising him. What about

you guys? What do you think?

I find the Lord's Prayer a little less helpful. And the, the major reason is to do the fact that, um, I remember being taught it as a child and I use it.

I, I'm a, one of the things I do for a living as a funeral celebrant and because I'm a Christian funeral celebrant, every service is a Christian service. And the common thing that we hold is Christian denominations. Whether somebody's of, you know, free churches or Anglican or whatever is the Lord's Prayer.

So we say the Lord's Prayer. So for me, it has a very formal feel to it. Um, but what's in it, there's a big question, isn't there? About whether it's a prayer you should pray or whether it's a model of prayer, as a process of praying. And I don't think it's either or. It's both. I mean, it's, it's fine, but I'm, I think it's really interesting what Steve says about the Hall bi name.

We haven't talked about the fact that there is an element of prayer, which is just telling God what we think. Cuz God is . Good. And there is just so much to say and so much of the Psalms, which are also songs of prayer, are positive and they're talking about the character of God.

And this is, this is very simple, just how I look at it, is that, you know, one of the, one of the things that I think, the first thing I pray most days is Thank you.

, , I mean, that's my Lord's prayer in a way. when Jesus, at the last supper, when he, when he broke bread and given thanks, you know, the number of times he gives thanks and, and, um, and I think that's, For me that that's the Lord's prayer.

Yeah. In, in a, you know, in a, in a different form. But it's, it's so, it's so vital that we, we understand where, where it's coming from, where the new day has come from, where our. You know, our sleep has come from, et cetera, but it's, yeah, it's, it's, um, for me it's no more complicated than that.

And he says in the Psalms, God is the giver of life.

He's the giver of all things.

Some model, some models are helpful, but I think the thing that I've kind of got from this conversation is that actually you can be, you. In front of God. You can be completely you. He, he knows us. He made us, he knows what's best for us. You know, he already knows what we need before we even ask him.

Yeah. He just delights for us to, to come to him, our father actually, I think is, is is amazing, isn't it? You know, that, that first bit of the Lord's prayer. Our Father, I think if you know God as father, it helps you to understand why, how, and, and what to pray.

And I think when you come to the end of it all, there are times when I've prayed for people who are dying, oh, I just don't wanna see die.

And there are times when I've prayed for people who are just going through such bleak times and there is nothing I can do. And there have been times when I've been so bleak, there's nothing I can do. And ultimately the only thing I can pray is, father, your will be done. Your will be done cuz I can't see what it is and I can't see where I'm at and I can't see how this can be your will, but I trust your will be done.

I think that's worth remembering.

I just, I just finally, um, for me is, is is again going back to John seven, where it talks about out of our innermost being is a flowing rivers plural of living water by this cement, the spirit who hadn't yet been given. But, you know, on a daily basis there's, there are these rivers flowing out of us.

Now it's not, I dunno if, if I've got the right theology here, but I, I, I see it as, you know, rivers of living worship, rivers of prayer, rivers of thanksgiving, rivers of, well, whatever, put your own. Name on there, you know, rivers of joy, shall we say. And, and, and, uh, but it's, it's because of who lives in us. We can do these things, it's just as we become more aware of who indwells us, then we can, we can reach, you know, depths of, of prayer and praise and thanksgiving that we probably wouldn't have thought were possible five, 10 years ago.

You know? But it's, and it's, again, it's. If you believe in me out of your inner innermost being will flow, and that, that's, I, I, I'm Fred, I'm quite simplistic about these things, and I need all the help I can get. So it's, I, I, that

make sense? Yeah, absolutely. You got anything to add, Steve, before we wrap?

I'm, I'm very much with that, with Jack, and I think it's a journey, you know, as we, as we become more mature Christians, as we, as we learn to know him more, um, then the, the depth of our relationship increases.

But then again, it's not, it's not a, a straight gradient. Life has its ups and downs. There are hurdles, there are chasms, there are peaks, there are troughs. And, uh, but he knows, he, he knows, but he's always got us. Yeah. And he always leads us forward.

I, I think there's a couple of things I just wanna say to wrap up, if that's okay.

First of all is there's no way we've covered everything. There is no way we are going to have to have more podcasts in the future to cover stuff up. But it's been so good to talk to you guys. Thank you so much for your time and for your wisdom and for your experience and your willingness to be uncomfortable enough to share it in this little room.

So thank you for that. I think to close, I just wanna share a verse and then I wanna do something we've never done on the podcast before. The verse is, is the verse is at the end of the Philippines four passage where it talks about prayer. It says, finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things.

And I think there's an element that that is prayer. It's turning our mind to God who is always pure, lovely, right? Noble, true, admirable because Father God is God. And I think that's really important. And to close, this is a bit weird cuz we've not done this before. I wanna pray and I wanna pray for everyone who's listening.

Very simple. So is that okay if I pray? Yes. Father God, thank you for your voice and your time and your care and your love for us. And I pray for everyone who's listened to this podcast and also those of us who are in this room. Lord, would you give us rich prayer lives? Would you help us to pray Well, Would you help us to get to know your voice and to get to know you?

And please God, answer our prayers and because we are stupid sometimes, help us to see the answers that you give us, and to know that you are present in all things. Yes, in Jesus' name. Amen. Thank you.