The Pondify Podcast

I had a lot on my mind. You know, we got all this, we'd had all this flurry of activity and then nothing for ages. And I was sat on the coach from the airport to our hotel in Turkey and I closed my eyes and I just said like, God, what's going on? Like, when's, when's this? When's this gonna happen? And he very, very clearly said to me, in two weeks, you're gonna hear something in two weeks.

So I thought, okay, I'll enjoy my holiday. So the weeks holiday went by and then we got back, and then it was another, another week to the day , it was an email or a phone

call. I got a phone call from our social worker and I could hear in her voice and she said, Esther, I've got a profile for you.

And I knew that this was different. The way that she was excited talking to me. I thought she knows something here. She had a profile of this baby. I was getting ready to go and meet Matt in London for a night out. We were gonna go to the theater and we were at dinner beforehand talking about the information.

She'd told me we were waiting for the email to arrive with the profile and it arrived just before the, the show. And we read it and we watched the show, but we didn't really watch the show because we were so excited. Cuz his profile just sounded perfect. I thought, I think this is, I think this is my baby.

There was no photos or anything. We just heard about her.

That was the first thing. You know, God's timing. The second thing is that, we told our, our small group at the time that we'd got, , We got this match. And, , one of the dads of the people in our small group was there and he said, oh, have you got a, a name?

And ESA said, no, I haven't been given a name by God. And I said, well, I have, and they said, oh, what's the, name? And they gave the, and and I told them what the name was. I'm not gonna mention what the name is on, on here. But the profile that we gotten was not the name that God had given me anyway, as we, as we began to explore matching and whether or not this was the right, baby for us, , we were talking to the, the social worker about middle names.

And she said, oh yeah, she has got a middle name. And she said a name that it, it was a name like the one that, that God had given me. And she said, let me dig out the paperwork. She said, oh no, sorry, I've got it wrong. It's this name. and it was the exact name that God had given to to me on, on my way to work.

When I'd asked him again, it was just like, what? This is incredible. Like, it was one of those moments where like your mouth just drops open. You just dunno what to say and it was just, it was like, oh, oh my gosh. I know that God speaks. I know that God sent us on this journey.

And yet his timing has been perfect. Yes, yes. We've had these disappointments. Yeah. We were thinking, oh, that should have been our baby. But it wasn't. But then he's given us a timeline. He's stuck to that timeline. He's left in like clues, like obvious clues that, you know, if, if we weren't sure that that was our baby, now we knew.

Now we knew, we were like, right. Okay, fine. Yeah. Let's go to the next part because you know, it was Esther's favorite part the next bit. Cuz you, you have to go to panel again. The interview again. So do you wanna explain that ?

Yep. So we said, yes, , we want to adopt this baby.

This is gonna be our daughter. And so then we met with medical professionals about her. We met with her foster carer that she was living with at the time. We didn't meet her, but we met the foster carer. They kind of piece it all together, write another report about us and why we should be parents of this.

This little, little girl, and then you go back to panel and you go in front of a room of people. And I think I was more nervous this time because after this panel, if they said yes the following week, we would meet her. But if they said no, we would go. Back to square one. Well, not back to square one, back to to matching, but I knew that this was our little girl, this, she, she was gonna be ours.

So I thought, well, they can't say no, but, but they could. So, yeah. So very nerve wracking. And then so

you go to the panel, um, they

say yes. Yeah. And say,

yeah, ,

unanimous.

And then what is the process from there? What is it like actually bringing her home? And maybe even further than that, what is it like to begin, uh, parenting?

So then we start preparing, or we had already started preparing our home. We'd got a cot. We got everything we needed for a baby. I had made a blanket that, um, we kind of had in our bed that while we were sleeping, so that it got the scent of us, which was then taken to the baby after the. Panel said yes, so that she was getting used to our smell.

We took photos, big photo printouts of us that the foster care would then put around the house so that she's getting used to our faces, a little toy with a voice recording, which she would then play with and then, and it's all to kind of, to try and get her used to us before we then meet her. So that we'd then met her on the 7th of November.

So we met her for an hour and then went home again, and then the next day, two hours, and then went home again. And we kind of kept building it. Up until then, the foster care would bring her to our house. And after these 10 days, we then went, drove to the Foster Cares house, picked up our baby, and brought her home

forever.

That was scary. , because it's like uhoh, no going back. But, I love the phrase that, the adoption agencies use and that we use forever Family. . I love that. Yeah. You know, there, there are, apparently there are 9,000 children in the UK at the moment that are looking for a forever family. Mm-hmm.

that just breaks my heart. Our daughter will, uh, our eldest daughter will always be in our forever family. We will always be her mom and dad. There is, a legal. Contract that's made that cannot be broken. It cannot be broken. And so you asked about what parenting was like, uh, as well. Once she was with us, well, she slept really well, , like, we were so spoiled.

Like all our friends are like our, our children. Our children don't go to sleep, you know? And we were like, well, our daughter's nine months old. She's bottle fed, she's in a routine, and she goes to sleep and she sleeps through the night. And they were just jealous. , you know, this baby was supposed to be broken, but

But, but, but no, that's a good start. And, and then a couple of months in, we, um, we got a phone call, from Social Services saying, oh, birth mom's pregnant again. , would you like another one? Uh, they didn't say it like that. That's . That's the way I, that's the way I heard it. That was the gist. Yeah.

And, um, and we were like, what? We've been pairing for like two or three months. Do we want, do we want a what? No, this is mad. We prayed about it and we said yes. And so whilst learning to be parents of this amazing baby that was funny, hilarious. All of a sudden we hear about, uh, a, a sister and, um, we could never have said no.

Hmm. Like, you know, um, I've got sisters, Esther's got sisters. Uh, I know the benefits of, of having siblings and I'm so glad that we said yes. You don't start all the way again. You, you do still have to be assessed because there is something that changes in your home and that is that there's another baby.

Uh, there's a baby to con, to consider. They do still. Check you out and, and make sure that, that, that nothing too drastic has changed. And so we, so when we went to matching panel for a third time panel, the third time you were so chilled out, Esther, you were like, yeah, this is easy, breezy, , like, no

problem now.

Yeah. So approval panel and matching panel on the same day. We had two panels in and out. And actually the panel chair when they said yes that we could adopt our youngest daughter, she came back in and she said, well, obviously it was unanimous that they said yes. She said, one of the panel members actually said, This family can adopt as many children as they want.

Wow. There there's another, there's an, so there's 9,000. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just need a bigger house. Just need a big house. Yeah. Yeah. Where's, gimme back my flat. But again, another thing that, God's done is, is again, to do with names. Before Esther and I had even thought about adopting, I had said to a group of my friends, if I ever had a.

I would name her this, this name. Now some of our very good friends, they, uh, shortly after I'd told them that got pregnant, they had a little girl and they named their daughter that particular name, and I was fuming . Well, , one of the, the massive benefits about adopting is that you, you don't choose your, your children.

Names. Well, I got my wish, . The, the, the name that I wanted is the name of my, my youngest daughter. And at her celebration, party, I did remind my friends on the microphone in front of everyone that they are name thieves. But I still got my way, so I won, I won . So just a couple

questions. Um, one step back.

Sorry, just one step back cuz it just dawned on me that we haven't covered something that was kind of important. You said earlier with, birth children, you take them around and you introduce 'em to everybody immediately and you get 'em socialized. But with adoptive children it's completely different.

Could you

explain that?

So, with adoptive children, you have got a child that moves into your home that does not know you at all and they, have got to build up a bond. They've got to form an attachment with you to learn to trust you, to learn who you are. Because this is a baby. It's not like you can tell them.

This is your mommy, and they will understand that. And this is your daddy. They have got to learn it by kind of all of their senses and knowing that you are there for them. So, um, for the first few weeks or three or four weeks, you are mainly at home or you're going out, but you. , you cannot meet up with many people.

You definitely cannot let other people hold your child, which is very strange, especially when you first meet people and you say, this is my daughter. And people ask like, can I hold her? And we had to say no. And it's really hard because you want to share in the excitement, but you can't do that for the benefit of your child, that they need to know that you are there for them all the time.

Even in this scary situation, you've just taken them out to meet hundreds of new faces that they've never seen, and you are still there for them holding them. You're not gonna pass them on and say, here you go live with somebody else, because that's their experience of life so far.

That was particularly hard for grandparents, as well.

Cause again, especially with my, my mom, , my sister has, a natural. Child, , my nephew and, he lived with my parents, , for probably the first year. My mom was so used to holding babies, like for, for, to be told, you know, actually, you can't even come round our house.

, if we meet up with you, you're gonna see us for five minutes. We're not coming in your house. You're gonna have to meet us outside somewhere just to look at this child, you can't do any of that. I think they found that really difficult. I think Esther's mom probably found that quite difficult.

Actually like , we, we are here podcasting tonight and, Esther's mom, Nana is, is looking after the girls and like they, they absolutely love their nana. Like they really do like, it's, it's hilarious. Again, if, if any of you know us or know our children and come to church on a Sunday, you will hear to shrill screams of Nana.

And see two kids running along the front of the, um, at the Churchill and bundling, an elderly lady, . She's not elderly. She's elderly. She's older than me. .

So you've got your two daughters. What was the process of telling them that they are adopted? Did, do they know that they're adopted? What was that

like?

So they, it is something we have always talked about with them. We were told throughout the process that if they can remember a day when they were told that they're adopted, they have been told too late. It is something that they've always known. We've always spoken about it. They have got a book that has got lots of pictures in pictures of birth parents, pictures of foster care.

It's a, it's called a life story book. And it tells the story of the beginning of their life and then we carry it on. Um, I used to practice, Telling them when they were too young to understand. But I would say, oh, you know, so-and-so's got a baby in their tummy, but you didn't grow in my tummy, did you? You grew in somebody else's tummy and and then I became your mommy.

So it was just natural language. They understood it and yeah, that's just the way it's always been.

I guess something you hear parents say who have biological children a lot is you hear them say like, oh, I came to such a deeper or a different understanding of the love of God for me as a father now that I have kids.

And so you guys adopting. Your children, what would you add to that,

or what would you say to that?

So every Christmas, most recently we go to Esther's mom and dad's , and at Christmas dinner, like I just, I look around the table at everyone and I look at, uh, my girls and , Esther's dad's responsible for this, for bringing this thought to me because he said like, quite early on, he said, you know, I just couldn't imagine them not being here.

Just imagine where they could have been. We're very lucky our children didn't spend barely any time with their birth parents. But you hear stories of children that have had horrific upbringings. But again, even what we do know, , of, I just thank goodness that our children are with us. It's like, it makes me think, well, where would I be without.

my Heavenly Father. Yeah. The equivalent is, , they could have been in dirty nappies being shouted at being hungry, being cold, just not being understood. That's the equivalent of what it would be like for, for me, if I wasn't with God, I would be in filthy rags, hungry, cold, alone, abandoned, but I'm not, because God picked me in the same way that we picked our children.

God picked me. You know, if you're a Christian, listen to this. God chose you. Not that he just chose you, but he gave everything for you so that you could become part of God's forever family. Um, with, with. , um, comes an inheritance, comes an innate sense of responsibility. They, they, again, when you, when talking about, , families, they, they say that, um, the more you spend time with your family, the more you look like them, not just physically, but in terms of the mannerisms, in terms of what they find funny, in terms of the way that they laugh.

They, they pick it up. And it's the same with adopted children. It's called epigenetics. And, and what it means is, is basically yeah, the children who may have been adopted into your family, they might not look like you. Although our girls are pretty tall. And when people say, oh, your girls are tall, aren't they?

I go, yeah, just like their mom. Si the six footer over here, . Um, uh, but, but again, in, in the way that they laugh, in the way that they're humor, in the way that they're cheeky, you know, in the way that they're kind like they, they look like the mix of Esther and I, and it's the same with us and God. Yeah. The more time that we spend with him, the more time that we spend with our brothers and sisters in Christ, the more and more we look like Jesus.

Yeah. And, and that's the goal, right? Yeah. That we look more and more like Jesus. Yeah. And so that's how becoming an adoptive parent has made me reflect on what it means to be, um, adopted into God's family. Yeah. I think the thing I find most comforting is that it is a forever family. Yeah. Um, not just until we die.

but beyond, I think for me, going back to your question, the realizations come in different ways. People often say when they have given birth, they've got this bond, this kind of rush of love for this child that, goodness me, I love this child so much. How much more does God love me? Um, whereas we didn't get that at first.

You have got a child who you are learning to love and we, we did love them straight away. , the bond gets deeper and deeper as you parent more. Our children struggle with different things and some of their behaviors. They may do things and I can't stop them doing that. And I, I love them so much, but I, I want them to stop hurting themselves or stop doing something which is, is damaging.

But I can't do it. But I've got to love them through it. And I think God sees that in us. We do things, we hurt ourselves, we damage, damage ourselves. And he can't stop us doing it because he's given us this free will, but he loves us through it. And, you know, and I will always be there for my girls, always.

And they can. No matter what they do, I will be there and I know that God is there more so for me, no matter what I do. ,

he's there. Your

children have got, I mean, they're very blessed to have parents who love them intentionally and understand so much around that. What are your hopes for your children, your daughters, for the future?

Because you've parented them for the last five years, four years, six. You are going to parent them for the rest of their lives. You will always be their parents because they are your forever family. What are your

hopes for them? When we were, being matched with our youngest daughter, I asked the matching social worker why they chose us.

Hmm. Because although yes, we have to say yes to profiles, they're the ones that have to suggest it in the first place. And she said something, That, you know, I'd, I'd been told by, by other people that you're not, you shouldn't really talk about being Christians when you're adopting. You shouldn't, you shouldn't say anything because they, they, it won't look favorably on you.

But I just couldn't not do it. And she said, look, the reason we chose you is because we know that you're Christians. We know that these children, they need to be somewhere where there's good morals, where they're gonna be brought up and where they're gonna have, you know, a, a large family basically. And that, again, it just confirmed things for me.

But my hopes for my, for my girls is that they know Jesus as their best friend. They will have traumas that will hurt them and upset them. They may have learning difficulties. They may struggle with different things. I'm not bothered what they choose to be. I just want them to be happy. I want them to know Jesus.

I want them to know that they are. Loved by God. They, they are loved by us. That we are, we are never gonna walk out on them. And that God's never gonna walk out on them. No way. No way. And

that's it. Yeah. I think for me that just knowing that they are loved, we put a lot of effort into showing them love, being there for them because we do love them and we are there for them, but I want them to know that, and it to not be something that they have to think about, that it's just there within them, that we love them and that God loves them.

And so

what would you guys say, you've talked a lot about the process of adoption and it is quite, uh, a lengthy, difficult, challenging process. What would you guys say, um, obviously if there's anyone at CCCs, they can come and talk to you about this, but what would you guys say to someone maybe who's listen.

um, who's thinking about adoption, but understanding the process that it's gonna be, um, maybe what encouraging words would you say are just advice or, um, anything along those lines.

So the first thing I would say is come and come and talk to us and come and have dinner with us, and we will tell you so much more than than we're, than we are happy to talk about.

Um, with, with you guys. We'll, we'll talk to you about all the nitty gritty. Yeah. Um, that's how our journey really started. You know, God told us, um, he put something on our heart and we investigated it by having a conversation with a couple that had, that had adopted. We do it. quite often. Um, uh, it's nothing new.

You know, you are never gonna ask us any questions that are gonna make us feel incredibly awkward because we've already been asked them.

Yeah. And if we are asked a question that we don't want to answer, we won't answer it. So it is not something to be scared

of. Yeah. And, and so yeah, come and have dinner, , bring wine, and again, pray about it.

, we've, we met with a couple, a little while ago who said, um, that they had been asking God for, for, uh, for a sign for confirmation about adoption. And I was on a course and, um, uh, with this particular lady, I said, oh, I'm an adopter. And I saw her eyes. .

She stopped her conversation and was like, what? You're an adopter. Now, I didn't know at the time that she'd been asking God for, for a sign, but she came over and with, with her husband and we spoke about it and she told us again, God had said that this is , what was gonna happen, and she'd asked for confirmation.

God speaks. Wow, God speaks. It may not be the same that for everyone. It may just be that actually you have a conviction to say, you know what? I can, I can be a mom or I can be a. I can parent or I want to parent someone who's been through trauma, therefore I'm gonna investigate this.

Um, some people hear God verbally like you, you esterday heard you are gonna adopt your first child. Others, it's just a feeling. Investigate it, come and talk. Just because you're having a conversation doesn't mean that you've gotta commit. Yeah. As we said, it takes a long, long time. , if it isn't gonna happen, it's not gonna happen.

Yeah. They

won't let it. Um, I guess something I would ask is, um, so you've talked a bit about this term forever, family. I'm just thinking about that term in terms of the church and the body of Christ. Just aware that for a lot of people, they might look at their church or the church, the global church and be wondering how.

They can take what they've experienced as family, good or bad, and actually apply that word, that same word to the church or the body of Christ. So I guess, uh, for example, what I'd say is to you, family is close-knit and it's really tight. And it means that, you know, every single year you're getting a card on your birthday or every single year you're getting a call from this relative, and they're gonna remember, and they're gonna love you in it.

And that's what family means to you. It's a, it's a close, tight-knit thing. Um, and you're coming into the family of God or, or the church or whatever, and you're kind of going, oh, that's not my experience. Mm-hmm. , you know, or things like that. But it, but scripture says we are adopted into family. We are adopted into the body of Christ, into the church.

I don't know what, what would you say to that? Having, having adopted these children into your forever family? Just, I don't know. That term was just stuck out to me a

bit. I think people are messy, right? Yeah. Um, we all come with trauma. Uh, we all come with brokenness and it isn't all sunshine and rainbows.

Yeah. In a natural family, in adoptive family, yeah. In church family. I get like, you, you can get hurt in church if, if you don't realize that, that actually it's a, a doctor's waiting room full of broken people. It isn't always that way. , thankfully. And there is community in, in order to experience all authenticity, you, you have to be vulnerable.

You have to talk about it. Yeah. Um, you have to talk about your hopes, your dreams, your broken bits, you know, your disappointments. And, church is fantastic, but it's about Jesus. Yeah. We're trying to be like Jesus, but some of us are a bit further off than others. ., and again, you can be disappointed by.

People all the time. In the same way with your family now. Like I think back to my upbringing, there are, there are certain things that, that clinging into me that when somebody else does it, it reminds me of a time that, yeah, you know, someone wasn't there in my birth family, , when we were going through the process, of adopting, this is gonna sound so arrogant, the, um, the social worker said, oh, we're gonna have to try and find some flaws in you, Matt, um, uh, because, you know, you've got all these different strengths as to why you'd be a, a really good parent, so we're gonna have to come up with something.

And I said, I know what it is. I said, I know what my flaw flaws are. I tease, I tease people in general now. They said, oh, well, you know, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to curb that a bit, aren't you? You're gonna have to work on that. And I think I've teased my daughters. Five or six times today already over, over the, over the dinner table.

I can't help it. I don't mean, and sometimes I do it too much and they cry and, uh, and and, and, and I, I know that my youngest daughter, she, you know, she struggles with, um, with giving, with giving things that she perceives as hers a way to others. Not cuz she's mean, but because something was taken from her when she was younger.

Her, her foster family was taken from her when she was younger. But it don't, it doesn't make me a bad person, , that I forgot that time or that I teased that time. It just means to say that I, I wasn't perhaps thinking of somebody else. And so some people would expect church to be full of fixed, lovely, wonderful people when it's.

anybody

expects perfect is really diluted. Mm. I mean, we come from families. I mean, I see my dad through very romantic eyes cuz he died when I was 14. But as an adult, I can see my dad worked too much. He took the mickey too much. He must have had some sharp edges, but he was much softer. And I see my mom has sharp edges and I look at myself and I absolutely, I, you know, I, I take the mickey outta my children all the time.

I love them dearly, dearly, dearly. But I'm imperfect. When you come into church to the church family, for some reason, perfection is expected and we expected ourselves in of others. But the reality of it is that we love, despite who people are most often not because of who they are. Mm-hmm. . And if we only love people because of who they are.

There's something quite wrong with that because God loves us despite who we are. Yeah. Not because of who we are. Because who we are is alienated and completely distant from God, but who he knows we can be is his children. Mm-hmm. , I, there's something really deeply profound about that. We need to talk about family of God at some point, I think as a, as a topic itself really.

I just wanna finish by blessing you both. I've said this before, that your daughters are very blessed to have you, but you know, when you were matched to your daughters in heaven, They were matched to you. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's something deeply, deeply profound. And to be honest, on Sunday for the first time, I had a chance to say hello to them and chat to them, and they're lovely.

It was just so nice. . I mean, I like kids anyway, but you know, there is so just bless you guys. Um, bless you in your parenting, bless you in your relationship together. Bless you as you, uh, evangelize adoption, because I know you are really passionate about it and we really, you know, please

tell more. I have thought of something that I, I don't wanna say like, not everyone will be called to be, an adopter or, a foster carer by just supporting families who are going through that.

It is tough. It is tough. Parenting in general is, is tough. That it's likely that if there was one family in every single church in the uk. . if one family in each church were to adopt, you know, those 9,000 children would have their forever families. So, you know, like su support them, bless them.

Come and babysit , um, uh, you know, like pray for, pray for them. Um, encourage them. That's, and I'm not, and that goes through all, all parents, doesn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we, we have experienced that massively in our church family. We, we, we really, really have. So yeah, we just wanna, I wanna thank our, I want to thank our church family, um, for, for that as well.