The Pondify Podcast

I have to say I really agree and I too grew up in a in an Anglican church and Even now I can probably quote the whole Eucharist service. It reminds me a little bit of do you remember Terry Waite when he was held captive for so long?

He, one of his survival methods was going through those words that he had just imprinted. I think it could be seen as a bit of a safety net for us all to have that sort of thing. In the back of our mind when that heart love seems to be fading it's almost like a training method to keep you back on track get you back there

I get what you're both saying you're going to disagree.

No, i'm not going to disagree This is more to do with me than anything else in that I find liturgy really difficult, and I still find it really difficult. For those who haven't grown up

in the Anglican Church, what do you mean by liturgy?

What liturgy is, the definition of liturgy is structure.

That is all liturgy means, and liturgy is structure of worship. Anyone who's listening from CCBS who sits there thinking and is right now thinking in a very smug manner Oh, no, we don't do liturgy in our church because our church is very free It's really interesting that we do very free in exactly the same way every week.

Yes we do liturgy. You don't have to have formal liturgy for it to be liturgy. It's to do with structure. And so when we talk about Anglican liturgy, so I'm not a Church of England person at all. I did work for a year or two in a Church of England church as a youth worker, which was an interesting adventure.

But The idea of liturgy in that sense is that you have what was the Book of Common Prayer which is an amazing theological document for anyone who wants to read it. If you want reformed theology, read the Book of Prayer. There's also the alternative Book of Prayer, there's, I don't know what they've got currently, but they've got something, but it's pretty much the same.

And they do have services of different kinds for every occasion. and services for the year. There is a thing called the lectionary which is the entirety of the Bible covered in three years through all of the readings which is an amazing idea and those things are things that people grow up with and they learn it.

The simplest form of liturgy is the Lord's Prayer which people know. So our Father who art in heaven bloody blah Lord sorry about that. For me I find that gets in the way of my worship. Now, I'm not stupid enough to think that I don't have liturgy, because I know I do. However, when somebody leads communion, which is what I would call holy communion, which the Anglican Church would call Eucharist, when somebody leads communion and says we're just going to do communion.

I'm not going to tell you how to do it. We'll just get on with it and do it. That makes me really angry, because liturgy is also a structure by which we learn. About our father God. So when we pray the Lord's prayer over and over again, and when we use the words from Corinthians about the communion over and over again, what we are doing is imprinting in us the habits of understanding and that communion where we say, and I say to you what I also say to them, that on the night Jesus was betrayed, he took bread and he broke it and he said, this is my body broke for you.

I can say it off by heart. 'cause I've led it so many times when we say that. There is a something about it that allows us to go back to that simplicity and remember our first love and the reason we take communion is because Jesus died for me. I think we have to be really careful about what we mean by liturgy and by structure, but at the same time we have to be really understanding that we have it whether we like it or not.

The Lord's Prayer. That is a rhythm that I do have in my life, is that as I cycle into work, I say the Lord's Prayer. And it's so grounding for me, if we're talking about simplicity, that first two lines, for me, really take my eyes off myself. So our father who art in heaven, hallowed be your name. So normally as I wake up, I've got so much stuff on my mind.

And also it's very easy for me to get into obsessing about Oh, I wish I'd been more successful in this and that. And going on those kinds of cycles like a fantasy about a better version of myself, which is, that's my confession to you. There we go. Actually. It's just saying those words as I cycle in.

Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your will be done. Your kingdom come. It's not my will. It's not my kingdom. It's not my name. Who cares what, what happens to Beth Croft? Your name. And Is to be glorified. Not my name. So my little fantasies where I have a successful life and everyone thinks I'm amazing.

That actually is partly, revealing my insecurities, but it's also actually wanting glory for myself. I don't feel like I've got it. That's why I'm fantasizing. But, weird way. I'm wanting that for myself. So every morning okay, father. Your will be done your name be glorified, and I just, that, that rhythm's really helpful for me.

It's pride, isn't it? We wanna, I don't know, we wanna focus on ourselves, we need to focus more on him. Yeah,

It's getting down to its simplest form, it's less of me. That seems to be my the prayer that I keep praying at the moment. Less of me, more of him. I do think God can use the stuff as well and the distraction to bring us back to him.

I normally find that when there's crisis. I'm straight back to God. And and although I don't enjoy the journey, I do find myself hungering more for him. Not, I said earlier, because I want his attention, but also I just find comfort in just being and allowing him to take control.

Rather than me being in control when you said earlier Beth just about you know this fantasy version of yourself It was like oh, yeah, that's me. I've been found out. Oh So not only is Nigel your twin I too am your twin

But I'm more of a twin because I feel that too. Yeah,

fine, whatever.

I think it's really amazing what you're saying about the Lord's Prayer because It's really just a few words, and yet how long, how often have we been praying it? How many times does just one little phrase pop out and say, Oh, that's really key at the moment. That's really me.

I think there's no greater evidence that is really the Lord's prayer in the same way that the Bible is the Word of God, because Let's face it, we've been examining the Word of God for thousands of years now and we probably still haven't, we certainly still haven't got to the bottom of it.

I think that's really good.

I was just going to say that one thing coming out of this that I've been mulling on in terms of simplicity is I've been reading this little book by Tozer

called the gaze of a soul upon a saving God and for I've been thinking about, that helps me think about, the most important thing is that I gaze upon Jesus. In all of, anything that's happening, whatever the complexities are, that I'm looking at Him, not at myself. It's Him, not me. It's what, who He is. Not me, and I'm looking to his ability, not my own.

I'm looking to his sufficiency, not my own. I'm looking to his beauty and the fact that he is enough, even though I am not. And so I've been coming, and the way that I've been making that practical in my own life is I've been looking at the sky. I know that sounds really weird, but I've been feeling It, it brings me back to creator God.

You can see the sky anywhere. We rush through town, don't we? And we, when we are driving, we are trying to get from A to B and we're busy, but the sky's everywhere. And when you lock up, you there's clouds. It's so beautiful. I just realized that I don't look at it. And when I look at it, I think, wow, God, you're so vast.

You're so incredible. You're so beautiful. And whatever's going on in my life, however busy it is The sky is there. You are there. The God who created the sky is there. And so that gaze upon God and who He is is something I've just been trying to think about. And for me, that's simplicity. Whatever I'm going through, I can gaze on Him.

I think I get that. When I go walking, as I walk every day if I can, one of the things God's made me do in the last couple of years is stop. And when I am somewhere on my walk, I will just stop and I will listen. And I will look around. I do the same, a similar walk every day. So I have an area I walk in.

So I have different routes depending on how much time I've got. But I stop and it's amazing. I walk along. My brain is so busy that I'm thinking about everything that's going on and what I've got to do in the day and what this prayer is and who said that and why that happened and all that sort of stuff.

And when I stop, I suddenly realize the birds are singing and I didn't even notice it. And sometimes I hear the wind in the trees and I think. Wow. And it just changes everything. Now I hesitate to use this example, so it might not wake him. Another thing that's made me think, and this is really trying to ground all of this is Sophie and I've been married for 29 years now.

And I love Sophie more than anybody in the world. She's amazing. However, our life is so busy with her working and me working, children, all the rest of it. We are really different people. She, Sophie's busy all the time, whereas I will go and hide somewhere and just think and not do stuff. And we just have different ways of living.

And it's really easy to just get completely hung up on that. And recently, we went away for a couple of days. I'm sure I've used this example before in church anyway, but recently we went away for a couple of days. And I just suddenly realized I like her. She makes me laugh, and she laughs at my jokes, which, let's be honest, is quite a task.

She is incredibly lovely. And she's funny and she's far more intelligent than I am and she's in, I'm genuinely and I find, and I don't know whether anyone else finds this, I find that if I sit there, life is really normal. But when I actually look at her, there's something that peels off my brain that says, This is Sophie, and that is why we have to stop.

That is why we have to concentrate. We get our heads are like echo chambers. And until we stop, we don't have enough time to let the echo finish. And I find that it's in nature, it's in, Reading the Bible. I love reading the Bible, but I don't read it like most people do people seem to think that if you read the Bible, you should get every something out of every word and full stop.

I read through it. And if something catches my eye or catches my brain, I just stop and think about it. And I love doing that. And there's something about it.

I think that's a really good lesson for me, actually, because often when I'm reading the Bible, I'm reading that portion for the day. And to be honest, sometimes if it's Leviticus or something like that, you just trudge through. Other times, yes, it does really leap out at me and talk to me, but what I don't do well enough is that stopping.

And that just considering either when I'm reading the Bible or when I'm praying, my praying, I have to confess, is often Very much a monologue. And I don't really give enough chance for God to get a word in edgeways.

Tongues is very helpful too. For those of us that pray in tongues, I spend quite a lot of time praying in tongues because I can't think of words. And I just find that's really helpful. And in one sense, it feels really complicated because I haven't got a clue what I'm saying. But in another sense, I find when I pray in tongues for an extended period, things resolve in my

mind.

For me I find reading the Bible out loud really helpful. And similar to when, like what you said, Nigel, about when something sticks, I read it again out loud. Or a third time, or a fourth time, or a fifth time, until I feel I can go on. Because there, the Bible is alive and God speaks to us through the Bible.

And sometimes it can be what a single word Deliverer is the latest one. Deliverer. When I'm reading a psalm and I just, I I can go on for a minute saying the same thing. Because that's what God's picked out. Other times it's a sentence. Other times it's a verse.

But I find being intentional, reading it and speaking it out, listening to it to myself and, again, use, using it as praise somewhat, I find just, it just connects me. It connects me back to God. It's yeah, this is serious. .

Obviously, I know God's here, but just at any moment, just to stop and think, God is here. I've been trying to practice that. He's everywhere, isn't he? He's here. If I stop in the in town, I've stopped in the middle of the high street and thought, God is here. Or if I've stopped just for a moment.

In work, God is here, or in my living room, God is here, and just try to just for, even for a minute, just breathe that in, God's here. I find that really, maybe that's a simplicity thing as well maybe, but that cuts through everything, doesn't it? That, whatever's going on, whatever you're feeling, whatever's happening, that takes goes on the back burner for that moment, doesn't it?

I can't

remember who said it, it was one of the sermons because I re listened to the sermons before we were doing this. Somebody talked about stirring the affections, stirring their affections. Was that you Beth? It was, yeah. That's what you're talking about. It seems to me as you're saying that, it's this thing of intentionally taking some time to, to stir up your affection for God because it's there.

Not because you're stirring up something that doesn't exist, but actually because it sinks to the bottom and it just needs a bit of a... Fluffing a big a bit of a stir.

So there's I think there's a really important thing, Ollie, when Ollie talked about simplicity, I thought what Ollie said was really interesting too, when he talked about that it was about de prioritizing the other stuff, that being un busy and getting rid of stuff isn't the same as simplicity.

There are people who live the busiest of lives, and you can look back at the great saints, you can look back at men and women of God, you can look back at, All sorts of people. You can see people who work in the most amazing jobs and they're at it full on and there's something really simple about them.

It's not the same to be unbusy. Isn't the same as simplicity. So I think what Ollie was talking about is putting God first. What does it mean to put God first without losing all of that other stuff? We live our life, we have our work, we have our family. God isn't saying, Beth, you are going to be simple, you need to get rid of your two sons.

In order to be... God's not saying that. So what does it mean to put God first and have all of that stuff?

I suppose there's a few things. There's just, Ollie talked about decisions, didn't he? So he said when you are putting God first, it makes your decisions much more straightforward. That's something we're wrestling with a particular thing with the children and and their lives and what their lives look like.

So I think that's really helpful. When you are putting God first, it does make your decision making much simpler. I think there's also priorities in terms of the drivers, your drivers in life. So what is it that's, that my heart is running after? Obviously we know God's first with our head, but what is driving me?

Those deep drivers. So for me, I absolutely love my family. I... I think one of my drivers is to please Stu. Now he's very easygoing. I can have a horrendous day and he'll turn up and say, Oh, you're all right, Beth. It's fine. He's so sweet. But I, because I love him, I really want to please him. But actually sometimes that can get me into pickling.

So I can get anxious about that. And I also want my boys to really flourish, but that can, that, that can drive my decision making. And that can. I can get obsessed with those things about their lives in my head. And so I think it's thinking, what is maybe, what are my gods, what are my idols?

There was, yeah, if I had, we can't do, we cannot serve both God and money, or it could be God, we cannot serve both God and whatever else it may be. Now, God and family, we cannot serve both God and whatever, I don't know, rugby. God and, I don't know what it is, business. Now of course we're going to still be responsible and serve well whatever you do, work is for the Lord and not for man.

So you're serving out of a heart for God. But actually, it's out of a heart for God, not for that thing, not to satisfy some insecurity that maybe if Stu's pleased with me then that means I'm okay. Or if my kids are doing well, that means I'm an okay mom. Those being my drivers rather than actually I'm serving the Lord by, and my security's in him. I'm serving the law by loving my husband. I'm serving the law by looking after my children as best as I can, although it's challenging. Those deeper drivers.

Yeah, so the Bible passage was, it was Matthew 6, 24, that says, No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you'll be devoted to the one and despise the other.

You cannot serve both God and money. That hurts me. That really hurts me. Because it's tough being in business. Cash flow. Cash flow is king. That's the that's it. But Jesus is king. How do I balance that? How do I get that? How do I get that right? And, again, I suppose the answer's... Is, it is in the verse itself.

Who am I devoted to? Who takes priority, it has to be God because everything I have, will ever have, won't have is based on what God is gonna decide. And ultimately, what's the motive behind that? When I think of business is the goal to make money. That, that would be helpful because I can, I'm able to bless others with that.

Or is it because I want to be able to glorify God in a workplace where I can say to employees, can I pray for you? I'm so sorry that happened, where I can demonstrate. Jesus to people. Is that the main focus? That's a question I'm asking myself at the moment because maybe I need to have a rethink on that and how I conduct myself in that.

But ultimately, I want to be devoted. I have a desire to be devoted to God. And we were asking, how do we do this? I think the first thing is, okay what's the first thing that comes into your mind when you wake up? The first thing that comes into my mind when I wake up is Thank you. God that I woke up, but that's taken habit.

That's taken a lot of time to be able

to do that. I think it's very interesting that everybody has different stuff that gets in the way of their simplicity. Cause for me, money has nothing to do with anything. I just don't care and I don't know why that is. I'm listening to what you're saying, I'm thinking, yeah, and the first temptation is to think yeah, come on, just get on with it, Matt.

But the reality is I have other stuff which you don't have, which gets in the way of my. The common thing here isn't what gets in the way. The common thing is who we look to. And it's about Jesus. It's always all about Jesus. Who is the master of my life? And what you just said about, what is the first thing you think of when you wake up?

And that's really interesting. The first thing I think of when I wake up is all my feet are hurting or something like that. We'll pray for you. But I think another interesting test is what, if something was taken away from you, how would you react? I think that's a really interesting question because if I lost my home, I know I'd be upset and all the rest of it.

But actually, it's a house. I could live somewhere else. However, if I lost my laptop, I'd probably kill people because that's where I write my stuff. That's what that, that's my thing that I put my life into. That sounds terrible, but yeah. So the question, 15 to 20, Peter has denied Jesus three times. , Jesus has risen from the dead. Peter has been rejoicing with everybody else all about the fact that Jesus has risen from the dead. He's been in the room. He's seen Jesus raised. He's done all of that stuff. Jesus appears on the shore of Galilee, and you look at the end of John, cooking fish for breakfast.

I love Peter's response, where he's got all of that stuff, and his response is he jumps out of the boat and just swims to Jesus because he can't, the other stuff means nothing to him. And then Jesus asks him three times, do you love me? That's the question, because I know I love Jesus. What Jesus says to Peter is, do you love me?

Then feed my lambs, which is a basically, you love others as I loved you. So maybe the question is, do you love me? I'm not asking anyone here whether they love Jesus, because I know you all love Jesus. How do you feel when Jesus asks you that question? Maybe that's the question

I think for me, I'm in danger of turning it back on myself and thinking I'm not worthy of loving you. I am nothing. And then I have to remember, I'm adopted. I am a son. In fact, I'm a son of a king. That makes me a prince. So yes, I am worthy. Do I love you?

It's so easy to say, yes, of course. But that, I think the proof of the pudding comes in the day to day. Activity and the attitude and the action and that back to simplicity clearing away all the rubbish and just focusing

I think it's easy to hear that question and feel like it's some kind of examiner coming to check You know, oh, yeah, do you match up?

Do you know do you really love me? Let's have a look at your grades here And I think I don't know because I'm not Jesus, but I think, I feel like what it is Jesus, it's an invitation that Jesus is saying, do you love me? There's an opportunity here. There's an invitation to love him.

And I think it's partly because he knows that is what is best for us. That's , what we were made for, who we were made to be. And he's jealous for himself that we love him first for his own glory, but also because that's his heart for us, that he knows that's the best place for us to be when we love him fully, when we let go of those things that actually are trash.

When our hearts run after other things. It's so enticing, isn't it? We all get caught up into it, and I do. But they are, they're false gods. We end up putting ourselves on an altar. And, of a god that's really not going to serve us well, is going to destroy us. Satan came to rob, steal, and destroy.

But Jesus comes to bring life and life to the full. And so I think it's less of Jesus coming to say have you done the job? Do you love me? And more, Come on! Come on, Beth! Come on, Matt. Come on, Nigel. Come on, Chris. Do you love me? There's more.

I think that's really encouraging. And I just want to thank you actually for say, saying that because that, that really hit the spot for me.

I think the key thing I'm going to take away with with me for that is actually when I say, I don't think my love's enough. God has made it enough because God accepts. Our love with his grace, and that is just a gift that we can never match.

I mentioned earlier that , I've been watching documentaries on George Mueller and it matched up with what you said.

There was a quote at the end of this documentary and and his quote said, George Muller, nothing. The Lord Jesus, everything. George Muller himself, worse than nothing, by gracing Christ, the son of the king. And that's, he's grasped it. So have you Chris, because that's exactly what you just said as well.

But I think when we boil it down, Jesus is everything. And he could do it all without us. He didn't need to... To save me. He didn't need to love me, but he chooses to and the only response is To give him our all Yeah, there's stuff. Yeah, there's challenges But actually he deserves it all for what he's done for me.

He deserves all of me and That's it

I was just looking up I'm quite forgetful, but I, so I didn't bring the book that I meant to bring, but I've started a book called Humility by C. J. Mahaney, and he talks about humility is honestly assessing ourselves in light of God's holiness. and our sinfulness. And that doesn't need to be a place of despair because that's the gospel, isn't it?

That actually he bridged that gap. So it's okay to say I've got nothing to give and I haven't got anything God. That's the gospel. The gospel is I didn't. God's holy and he stepped in the gap because he loved me.. . So it says here, this is Tozer again.

, the man who struggled to purify himself and has had nothing but repeated failures will experience real relief when he stops tinkering with his soul and looks away to the perfect one. And faith is getting out of the focus of our own vision and getting God into focus.

So it's just that gaze again upon Him. It's okay to say I don't have anything. Actually, once I get myself out of the way and I look at Him that's the beauty spot, I think.

I think in wrapping up, I think, It's really interesting that we spent quite a long time talking around simplicity and it's been quite a complicated conversation in some ways I think what I would like to say closing and drawing it to a close is Church history Christian history is full of men and women Who spent their entire lives?

pursuing Father God and They wrote it Some of them wrote books, which are like 12 pages long. Others have written whole shelves full of tomes. They've talked about it. They've done all sorts of things. We have those resources. Find people. You've quoted Tozer. I would talk about Brother Lawrence. I've been reading the Brother Lawrence, the piece in the Pursuit of God recently, which he was a basically a medieval washer upper and he, people used to come.

Bishops used to come and talk to him because he was their spiritual director. He was an amazing guy. . Anyway, I've been thinking a little bit about different people, men and women, who have pursued God and have found him and they found him because their simplicity was this is the God who created all things, who sent his son to live and die for me and calls me into relationship.

There is nothing more important than that. Paul writes, and I can't remember exactly where, but Paul says, I consider everything else to be complete rubbish. And he doesn't use the word rubbish. He uses the word for for what you flush away in the toilet is what he uses the word. I can, I consider everything else in my life to be complete rubbish in comparison to God's love.

. It's so important and I just want to encourage people in our church to talk about it together. To spend some time, just put a little bit of time aside to spend some time thinking about who you really love and what that means and let God ask you the question, do you really love me? Because Peter got annoyed on the third time, he said, you know all things Lord, you know I love you.

And Jesus still said, feed my sheep. So let's let God ask us the question. Do you really love me?

Chris and Beth, thank you so much for joining us in the studio. You guys have been simply the best.

That was proper cheese.