The Pondify Podcast

think it's I'm trying to summarize in some sense, something that you said, Kwesi, was, that grace isn't limited, and there's this thing of a community, build a community of grace isn't limited by the community we build, the community is actually just an expression of even, actually the edge of God's grace, because God's grace in Jesus, God's grace through Holy Spirit is so vast, so great Unencumbered by limitations that we are, we can't hope to express that, but we try and we try our hardest to express it and we try our hardest to make sure people know it's expressed. So you have a wider community. How then does that grace that God gives us as men and women of faith? How does that find its way out of the community?

into the wider thing. You talked about the Kingdom of God. How does that work?

I think it's for you to understand that because when you see grace as God lavishing care love to us unconditionally is a gift. The word charis, grace in Greek is a gift, is unconditionally. And sometimes when we go out there, we want to give.

On conditions and I think looking back when I remember in my experience in, fellowship we were in, we witness to people but we want an outcome for them to make a decision to join us. We want an outcome for them to accept Jesus and be part of the church. They could come to church and then we can do an auto call and then we will say, you don't need to be a member of this church, but really we want them to stay.

That's the thing. So when you want to give grace out there without expecting anything back, that is a game changer. And that's how God gives us unconditionally. There's no condition attached to it. There's no, I don't expect you to. Say thank you. I don't expect you to accept it. I'm just giving it to you.

Just take it And that's a difference and you can if you can walk away from that expression Of the grace of God without thinking about what you've done and the outcome what's gonna happen That's the heart of God could God is going to do his work in where you've left it

I absolutely agree. That's the interesting thing, isn't it? It's a matter of if grace is a free gift, in one sense, we hope for something in return, but we don't need it. We don't need somebody to say, yeah, I agree with you, or I believe for us to show grace. Yeah. So then a question arises, and this is really the big question is how do we build a community of grace?

I think if we build a community, we ourselves, if we ourselves understand what God has done for us. And I think because it's so mind blowing. It's within our own faculties. We always Want an outcome or a condition is that unconditional bits that we as human beings don't understand and that is why if we're building a community, we even want to see something happening.

For example, like one of the one ways we can see is We are a multicultural church. We diverse, diverse people in our church. But we can't, we have we're able to accommodate each other because of grace. And we don't expect everybody to be like us because of grace. Because That's the unconditional bit out of it.

If you want somebody to agree with you, to think like you, to do things like you do, then that's, there's a condition attached to it. And until we develop a community of grace where we can give. freely and not expect others to say, even, say thank you or appreciate it or something like that. It's nice, but you don't have to.

And that's the bits that within our natural abilities, we can find that we want some response back.

That's very good.

Yeah. And I was just thinking following from what Kweisi was saying about Giving and not necessarily needing that. Thank you. And I'm thinking about there's so many ways to show grace or grace can be poured out in our community.

We can share that grace. It doesn't have to be a physical thing. It could be that encouragement. It could be that it could be the helping hand because that's what someone needs. And I think Again, church is evolving, I'd say, in terms of what our church looks like. And I think there is also that room for does your helping hand have a way of helping hand?

Does your encouragement has that? a specific person being open to extend that grace to every body, regardless of what difference there is. Difference of groupings, difference of ethnicity, whatever the difference is. Okay, so the difference not normally, not every time in the difference is what we see, the difference could just be a group of.

Click or a certain group of people. I'm only going to talk to these people in this on this side of the room because that's who I see and things like that. So I think grace in itself needs to be extended. As Grace said Regardless, without any condition, without the condition of the person, who the person is, what title the person has, what the person looks like, and I think as we change, we also think about how we continually develop that community of grace.

I don't think it's something that can stop oh we're here, we're now a community of grace. I think it's something that grows and also changes with time. changes with circumstances and so on.

I think it's worth asking. We've had some of your story. You came to CCBS. Did you come move to Bishop's Stortford for work?

Yeah. So I was, I've been working in Bishop's Stortford. Since 2006. I was working in Bishop Stortford and living in London. And then I moved to Bishop Stortford to live near work. And so that, that was how we moved together to

Bishop Stortford. Yeah, we moved

together. Yeah. I didn't let him go on his own.

I had to follow him.

We worked together. I think when our son was, our second son was born. We decided that Benita will stop working and stay at home. And that was opportunity for us to move. And even when we moved to Bishop Stockford, we were still we were doing, we're doing, we're in a community, but we're not doing church.

We're doing church in London and it was one New Year's Eve service, which I was just praying and then I had God speak to me that I could actually stop doing church and start doing community. And that's, that was when we decided that we find a church in Bishopstown. So

how did you find CCBS?

What year did you

come? So we came here in 2014.

And so how did you find it as a community of grace?

I think what I did we started visiting we, we would do one week here and then we'll go to one week in our church in London. And then I did a belonging course before we actually decided we did a belonging course together before we actually decided to stay.

And then when we did a belonging course I went back to my pastor. In London, and I said, this is the church that I've been to, did a belonging course, looked at the manual, then he goes yes, he goes. Do the kids love it? Do you feel at home there? How do you feel that's the place to be?

And then he came over to have a look at it and have his book to the elders.

Yeah, that was, moving to Bishop's Hortford was difficult before we got to the church bit. Yeah, I think it was the change of scenery. You mean it's

different to East London? It

is. It's much different from East London.

Yeah. I was cross for about five months or six months because I didn't want to be in Bishop's Stortford at all. I didn't find any commonality in terms of what I could get, what I, yeah, what I could get. I couldn't get any plantain, I couldn't get any yams, I couldn't get any food and stuff like that. But anyways, With the waitrose and everything!

It was just, it was different. It was different. But Kwesi here. It wasn't my intention to move. But Kwesi will pray all night. All day. You would hear him from downstairs and he's praying for the move. And when he decided, that he was moving, we were moving and he was looking for the house, not the other way around, not me.

I knew that definitely God has spoken to him and we're moving. So I've followed him in faith. In other words, okay. Yeah, a lot. I followed him in faith. I think when we came to when we came to the CCBS here, It was the welcome. We first got welcomed by Christine. I remember that clearly. Christine was the first and first person I met and she was full of life.

I, I think you weren't married just yet ' cause I remember when you got married, so definitely were married, but Christine welcomed us with the, it was like a breath of fresh air. What is this place? I'm like, this is great. And I think. That she had a lot to give. She had a lot to pour out and we received that I received that, the kids received that from going to super gang, and when we came I think one of the things I was That was different, which I really enjoyed, was that the congregation was allowed to express or say what God was speaking to them about.

They've got, they had more ministry time than we have now. There was much more when we first came. A lot of ministry time. It was nice to see that the church welcomed God's word. in different formats, in different ways. And that was different, but that was, that gave me goosebumps. It could be a song, it could be words, it was just, it was beautiful.

And I really felt that, actually, this church has a lot to give to me. A different expression of what church looks like. It's God. And, that's what really yeah. Yeah, I can, I, we can stay here, Kwesi. I'm like, the kids were allowed to walk around while you were immersed in worship. And you know that the kids were safe because they're around you.

No one is shouting at them to go sit down, go meet your mom, go meet your dad. They're all safe. And I felt that this would be a safe place for us as a family. And I was happy to stay. And I think. That grace itself being poured out is that just that love that came from almost everyone from Peter.

Everyone's giving you a hug. This was just not normal for us. Everyone's giving you a hug. I'm asking you, how are you? How are you?

See, I find that really challenging because I'm not touchy feely at all particularly.

But it was that they were interested in you. People are actually interested in who you are.

And they want to help you. You're not feeling well. Oh, do you know about the transformation team? You can call the office, they can help you. Something else. Oh, do you know? It's every need somehow can be met somewhere within the church. And think about it, even our needs have been met, even the people outside, the people who are hungry, even their needs have been met in church.

So it's like that, it's like a vapour just permeating even out of the small holes in the windows to actually touch people. That's

good.

I think one of the things that I remember sitting in the belonging course and Peter, I just, everything was refreshing and refreshing. And Peter was actually asking me, you kept using the word like refreshing. Obviously he didn't know where we had come from. And I think just to sit down and just see how.

A church functions and welcomes people love stuff, but did something else to it as well. And It's just, we felt at home and we felt at home as well. And everybody that has moved and come here as well. We also felt to make them feel welcome as well. So there are, new visitors and because a lot of people move from London and you want to look for a church.

And sometimes you look for a church because of the cultural. Churches that you're used to because of, most people who have grown up in London, we in a black majority church or Afro Caribbean church or African church, they are always different. And when you come to a church like, like ours, you want to see a bit of what you are used to, but you don't need to see what you're used to.

You just need to see where you can feel the grace of God. And that's, that is the magnet that will hold people. So they clumsy and they see it might not be what I'm used to, but there's something here that is just attractive for me to make it home.

Are there... I hesitate to ask it because I don't particularly like being negative anyway, but are there ways we could improve?

I mean you, you said in, you were saying you said we used to. Are there ways we could improve? What, where do you feel that grace needs to abound more?

So I think that, I was talking about earlier about that expression of grace is a developing thing. It's not a stagnant thing that stays there, it's something constant. So with the changes, you change what the outpouring of grace looks like. And Kwesi was touching on the fact that the church in itself is, it's Becoming more ethnic, if you wanna call it multi-ethnic, that we have different, we have the AF Caribbeans, we have the Africans, we have our Hong Kong community.

There are so many different communities within one setting, and everyone's experience of Grace May look different. Okay. So I think that. The way that we develop, I'll use the word develop, our becoming of a community of grace is to see that and tap into that, find out what people's experiences are, how you can encourage them, because your encouragement might look different, your support might look different, so how do we the, whatever you do might look different for a different group of people When everyone feels like, actually, yeah, this is home.

We felt it when we came because we're not looking for something specific. We were looking for the outpouring of God's spirit. We were, that's what we're looking for, and we found it. So we were okay. We were like, yeah, we're good with that. But not everyone might not be the same. So trying to say it in a different way that it doesn't count because it's a podcast.

Sorry, we're trying to say it the right way. Sorry. Because it's a podcast. So it's a match er up. As the church leaders, do you know what grace looks like for your Afro community or your white community or your Hong Kong community? What does that look like for them? Are they, how would I say it? I was reading something on this about the difference and diversity, how that can link.

into grace, because grace is that love that you're showing. But my acceptance of love and what loves look might be different from crazy completely. How do I know that I haven't asked? Could I ask and see what does that look like?

I think for me, I'm a very direct person.

As I ask questions. The reason I do that. It's because I think we spend an awful lot of time tiptoeing around the edge. And I believe that the way to do that is to say, as I've done with you guys when we've sat there and chatted is So what does that mean for you? How does that work?

Because I don't understand. I am perfectly happy to admit I am an ignoramus. I really, there are so many areas in my understanding that are short and unformed, and that's because I am a product of my culture, I'm a product of my education, my upbringing, and all the rest of that. And I want to learn.

I'm amazed at how Jesus approached the woman at the well. Because he approached her in a way that she could have him approach her. Because if he'd gone up and said, Have you heard about the Kingdom of God? She would have just run in the other direction. But because he asked for a drink of water, and it was so radically different to her.

It is this, as you said, it's how does someone else experience grace?

Yeah. And I think as a as a community, that's you're right. We have to unless you ask, you wouldn't know. And I think we also Cannot make assumptions about how what people expect and that's really important as well because we You know, we don't expect when we came to the church We didn't expect the church to be any different from what we're getting as because of Where we've come from, we were neither in an African or Caribbean church, we were in a church which was full of Afro Caribbeans, but not African or Caribbean either.

So it's, it wasn't this, because when we say this is because of the style of worship, the style of. Preaching the style of what people are comfortable with. But grace is accommodative. Grace is, as is on a extense understanding that you, if you know what God has done for you, you can accommodate what God is doing in his people.

And that's how we lived by. And you probably need to speak to people who come in to know, ask them, what did you expect and probably, that might be the thing of the welcome team or when they're doing belonging course. And that's where you find there might be some differences, but yeah.

You wouldn't know unless you ask.

I think it's really important to remember that passage in Scripture, it says deep calls to deep. Because we do recognize the Holy Spirit in each other. I know that one of the first times I got to talk to you properly was the first time I was preaching. And you were on the overseeing team.

You just, there was just this connection where you said, don't worry about it. And it just made me feel, Oh, that's okay. And there is a sense of giving people security. And I was wondering how we were supposed to talk about hospitality. Cause I knew hospitality was supposed to come into this somewhere, but this is how it comes into it.

How can we intentionally show hospitality to people who are different than us and just love them?

I think without, we have to have grace and that's the thing that the bits the bits is that we have to have grace to understand that hospitality is allowing people in to feel comfortable. And and either we create a space for them in our community or in our home we have always been comfortable with getting anybody into our house.

And that was one of the best things that we've picked, we picked up from our early church and experience and it's just opening our home and had a one bedroom flat or two bedroom flat and we could have 35 people for Friday night Bible study and was, that was fine because that's what we did. And so it's not been different.

And so we empower, we need to just empower people that grace allows. people to invade our space. And that's what we need to do in hospitality.

Yeah, I remember those days very clearly. Yeah, because I found myself when I move into CCBS in this different environment, thinking about would people be comfortable to sit on the floor?

Which to be honest, I had never had to think about before because we were used to 30 people in You find a spot on the step go for it. You find a spot go for it. A few people we've got cushions go for it So we had that and I guess again that same grace that people were okay to just invade your space and be all right With wherever you sit.

I don't need to sit on the table with knife and fork sitting nicely eating pretty It was like, no, I've got food, got a cup of tea, fine. Biscuits, fine. Oh, I don't have any biscuits, only got squash. That's also fine. And that takes grace, I think. If you have it, then you can allow for that. And to be hospitality, if you think about somebody, if you go to any hotel, you go to the hospitality suite, you're expecting really good things, expecting somebody to serve you, expecting somebody to welcome you.

And it's the same thing in your home in church. We've been welcoming. Welcome. Hope you had a nice time. Have you had a good sermon? Have you, is there any, do you have any questions? Anything that you found that sort of asking people how they're feeling and ensuring that they're okay?

. That comfort comes with lots of different things for different people, as we're talking about difference and diversity. So in terms of I said, Kweisi and I, for us, we've come to this church, we haven't got any special expectations about what we see, what we don't see.

No, we're okay. We've come here for God, the Spirit of God. We're good. That's just us. That might not be somebody else might think, okay, I'm here, I've been here for a while, quite multicultural, the church, okay, who's always preaching, you have people like that, who's always singing, hold on a minute, who's always on the welcome team, even that hospitality, they expect to see the diversity within the, not the leadership necessarily, but the groups, where's the diversity in the group, if I only invite Afro Caribbean people to my house.

What's that? Where is the love? Is it only for a specific group? Why can't I invite another person, a different person, intentionally? And we have to do it intentionally because we all, our minds and the way we think, sometimes always, that's one road. Unintentionally one road and because of God's grace that we have to pour out, it's not a one road.

It's as I said, it's like a vapor, to be spread out and how do we spread that out? It's called a fragrance. Sweet smelling fragrance. Absolutely. Yes.

Now, I think there has to be intentionality. I think that's the bottom line. The bottom line is hospitality has to come with intentionality either within the church or within our homes.

It has to be, it has to be intentional the way we do

it. And before we wrap up, just a final thing, there's also grace to let people leave. There's a grace to let people disagree and to let people express their faith in ways that are different. We don't have to have people agree with us, but it hurts when people leave because we love them.

Yeah.

And I think that's normal and I think there were, there was there was Paul, Barnabas, Silas, there was, they always got to a point where they were all going different ways, so I think grace is being demonstrated in the church and in the Bible so many times that it's never going to stop in the church and I think, thank you.

We have to understand that and if we understand the grace that we have, we can graciously freely give, freely receive, you can freely let go as well.

. I just want to say, and this is really important to say, I am so thankful that you guys are in our church with us. I feel so blessed to share.

Community with you, but to share family with you. I know you very little other than what we've managed to Grab because of course we live a distance and we've got a big church We're in and all the rest of that, but the grace of God is so over you guys and the grace of God to Encompass those who are different than you and to see that and to draw the To give the love but to draw the love out of people and I just want to bless you And I just want to thank you for coming on the podcast.

I hope it wasn't too harrowing or difficult an experience And I just want to bless you and your kids and your family and all of that stuff And thank you for coming on and that's it

Thank you. Thank you