The Pondify Podcast

Hello and welcome to the Pondify podcast. I am not Matt Squirrel. That has to be said today you have Nigel Warner leading this Pondify podcast and I have two wonderful guests with me. First of all, there is Bonita. Hello. And Kwesi. Hello. And I feel very blessed, have you? Thank you for coming on and it's really good to see you.

So Today, our topic is how do we build a community of grace? Now whether that's always our topic, because I've no idea where we're going to go in this because we have so much we could potentially talk about okay. No, what I'm going to ask you is very simply could you tell us who you are, what you do and how you came to faith?

Okay, I'll go first.

I'm Benita and I'm married to Kweisi for the past 15 years. I'm originally from the Caribbean a small island called Dominica. So I came to faith just before moving to the UK. I was brought up a Catholic had my first communion, confirmation, but when I was like about maybe 15, 16, I started to question a few things that I felt that I knew about from the Bible, but I didn't see it, so I started questioning things and from then started going to church with my auntie and my uncle on the days that I could, when I was allowed to and after school I decided to start going with my friend, so really I came to faith In a very odd way, but I'll explain what, how odd it was.

In the Caribbean, we would usually have what we call open open air crusades. So it'd be an outdoor, a visiting preacher from America or from other countries, and they would come. And they'd have this open air crusade where, You would have lots of music preaching, but at the end it'll be an, always be an altar call.

Now that altar call, everyone knows what time it's coming. So if you felt that you didn't want to become a Christian, you want to be born again, you would disappear literally during that time. So that was regular. You disappear for altar call. But my disappearing on that day was disappearing to way back.

on a wall under a tree. And that's where I sat on my own. But I could hear the altar call from that distance. But they talked about somebody under the tree. So I knew God was calling me from where I was. And that's when I gave my life to Christ. And from then on, it's wasn't all perfect, but I had made that conscious decision that the things that I did and decision that I made had to be or try.

I tried as much as to be in line with the things of God.

So my grandparents knew that I was old enough to go to different churches so they allowed me to.

I'd go to church with my friend, sometimes I'd go on the weekend and spend time with her and go to her church. And that's how I went to church. Yeah, and that was for a short while just before I moved to the UK. That's amazing.

That's great. Thank you. Kwesi.

So my similar background as Catholic, I was brought up Catholic most of my childhood.

And so when I was mid teens, or I think I was fourteen or so, moved to a Presbyterian school. So a Catholic boy would go to a Presbyterian school. So whereabouts in the world was that? That was in Ghana. So I was brought up in Ghana. And in Ghana, I went to a Presbyterian school, and that's when my second day in a Presbyterian school as a Catholic boy, somebody shared the Gospel of Jesus, and I...

Born again, and that was a story So yeah, it was quite interesting and that's how I came to faith

And did you how old were you when you came to the UK? So I

came to the UK after my GCSEs so I was 16 and so from after my GCSEs I yeah, I went to sixth form in the UK, but I'd come to faith before I came to the UK at that time And how old were you

when you came to the UK, Bonita?

I was 19, 20. Okay.

And as I understand it, you both lived in London? Yep. Okay, so what was life like in the UK for you?

It was different. Life was completely different. It was cold, for one. And I was just a very nice hot sun. It was cold. It was different for me. I had to find a job and so on.

In terms of faith and following Christ, I went to church with my mom. So my mom already attended a Christian church when I moved. So actually I went to church the same Sunday, like the following Sunday I was in church, which is where I met Kwesi. He was there that Sunday, but I didn't see him. Yeah, so I went to church with my mom and

And did you go, what church, whereabouts was the church?

So we were in a Pentecostal church in East End of London in Walthamstow. So that Benita's mum was already part of the church. And I was a part of church before she came to join us in the church. It was a lovely church. Okay.

So what was your experience of Christian community? Yeah. in that church and I guess before as well, but what was your experience of

Christian community?

I think it's a, it was a, an amazing experience. I will say because that the community of that church was a black majority church. But it was a church which was led by a white Australian and, but it was a black majority church and it was multicultural in the sense that there were various Afro Caribbean's various cultures mixed in the church.

But it had a church which basis and foundation was built on the Acts chapter two model of breaking bread and doing everything together. So it was strong in fellowship. Okay. And that was our experience of community. So we did. Everything together. And as a result of that, there was a lot of cross cultural relationships because of

that, which is very different to my experience of community, which is very white British middle class south of England.

You went to church. You said, How are you? I'm fine. Shake hands like a wet fish and then get on with your life., I'm trying to think of the right way to ask the questions because I don't really know what questions to ask. It's very interesting that when I was praying and thinking about how we talk about this, the passage I chose was the Acts 2 passage.

Now I suspect we have a pretty different foundational understanding of what that is. But actually, I suspect we've come to a place where we're pretty similar to our understanding of what that is. So perhaps I should read the passage out? Yeah. Is that okay? And we'll talk about the passage? So the passage I looked at is if you've got your Bible at home, then you can look it up now.

It's Acts 2, beginning at verse 42, and I'm reading from the New International Version because that's what's on my computer. It says, They devoted themselves to the apostles teaching and to fellowship. To the breaking of bread and to prayer, everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles.

All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people.

And the Lord added to their number daily, those who were being saved. So what does that passage mean to you, Benita?

So when reading this, it talks about how Christians would leave out the Christianity within the church and with other Christians some of it is quite easy to do looking at it.

You can, oh, I can do this. Yes, I can break bread. Selling all my possessions to share. That's a bit more difficult. And I think that some of it, it has to be contextualized at the time. Maybe it was written. Whereas we are all within the same church. You live take Lee or not take people wherever you live.

Brain tree. We live in thoroughly. You might live somewhere else. We all live different places, but we the commonality that we have, we're a community of God. And we're in this church now. I'm thinking that with in terms of the possessions is a matter of all of us being able to have something recognizing that if you have a need, how can I meet your need?

Not necessarily. I've got to sell my house to. Give you the proceeds, but do you have a need? Does Mark have a need? Does Dudley have a need? Is there a place for meeting needs? That's the way I see it. The breaking of bread. That in itself, sometimes it can be probably the la the Lord Supper, but not necessarily.

It could be just, by that you mean communion, commun. But it might mean, I think it has different meanings, ,

I think what my experience experience of, you ask about my community experience in our first church and why I emphasize on the act two was that this was the concept of fellowship was really drumming.

In our experience of where we met. And I remember clearly that most people joined the church and they met to realize they've not just joined the church, they've joined the fellowship. And that was very, I remember that point and because of that, so our relationships were built around fellowship, our relationships about eating in each other's house, our homes was just open every Sunday, you get somebody coming to your home for food, the breaking of bread, that was normal and it's not planned, it was, it can be spontaneous, you can come to church and somebody say, Come to can you come over for lunch today and because we're young all of us were young and so it was quite unique and that made it easier for New members to join, like that's daily people were being saved join the fellowship you feel There was something, some commonality in, in, in that sense.

Did you have

new people joining a lot?

Very much. For what reasons? So the way new people were joined a lot is because of the model of outreach. The model of outreach was very young people orientated. Every single sermon, irrespective of the type, had an article. There was I will probably say there was a radical approach to, to seeing people long, People get saved.

You're not left alone. People will ask you, have you given your life to Jesus Christ? You not leave the church. If you're a newcomer before, without anyone asking you that question, absolutely not. You can't escape. And it's unique. And I don't think I've seen that a lot, but that was the experience we had.

We've got the word grace. How did you see grace expressed? How did you receive grace in that context?

Yeah, that's a, that's a, it's a grace is a gift. And I think you, grace in a sense that people See you as a child of God, as if you come to faith in that sense, they lavish the love and grace of God to you in that context.

You are welcomed. You are not judged. And so forth. So it was very very welcoming in a sense. And and it was unconditional in that sense. I think that the caveat was that the, I realized and over the years you realize that. The concept was intentional in that church and it's, and because I got into, I got into leadership in that church, I understood why it was intentional in a sense.

Everything, an atmosphere was created to create an intentionality to get people to be welcoming in a fellowship, in a sense

yeah,

I'm you can say whatever you want.

It's right. Yeah. So the way I think about it as well, obviously, we have received God's grace unconditionally. We didn't ask for it. We didn't do anything for it. We've got it. And I think that phrase that goes freely, you receive that grace freely. You give, I think in the church we were, that was quite expressive, quite heavily.

In other words that we laughed people, they felt love. I was saying, I love you, or I love, no, they actually felt like they loved, they felt, Like they wanted to come back. They felt like there's something there that they want. They wanted there is like a hope. So we've shown them how we are in Christ and who Christ is, and they can experience it for themselves.

And we help them to experience Christ as well. So I think With that, grace in itself has been shown, we have received grace, and then we can also pour out that grace onto other people, and I think that was quite common in where we were, and that's a little bit of. It's a bit of difference of where we've been from and where we are today.

So

you mentioned quite strongly intentional grace, the owner of intentional grace. Was there, and there might not be, this is just as a question really, was there a difference between the intentional grace shown? And the idea of an overflow, that the grace was just, there are people I know who are just so full of grace, and they're so accepting, and they're just so kind, and okay, so they may not be theologically perfect and stuff, but they're just good.

That present too. How was that?

So I'll say a bit of that was present. So if you if I, if you go back to the Acts 2 model it's that togetherness that was inbred in the church, is that everything we do it together. And sometimes it's not always the pleasant stuff the criticisms came with it because for the years that we spent in that church and because of the strength of that fellowship, it failed to see itself.

Most of our life was run around the church because our fellowship our our friendship, our everything was around the church and they're around the same people. And so is it applicable in this day and age because that was trying to imitate the first century church intentionally.

And so to, to maybe. our families that was a little bit too strong for them. And in that

sense, because I'm, when I read the x two passage, I find it really interesting. One of the things that's been on my mind a lot recently is how we read the New Testament read Jesus's teachings, we read the teachings of the New Testament.

And we've had about 2000 years to get them right. Yeah. And they're still really radical. And we still haven't gotten Yeah. And how That can be expressed in such different ways. Did your wider families experience the same grace? If you were that focused on your local church, did they experience that grace?

Or did they just get the leftovers? Or was there something else?

I think the context of the church was different from what they know. That's how I see it. And I think if you have a church model, which is which does not fit what you are used to, then you find, you, you might not always say this is a bit too much for me.

Some people are happy to go, not speak, not spend too much time, and just be happy to drop in and out when they want. Whereas the level of commitment, the level of fellowship, the level of you did everything together. And that's why I use that. They emphasize the word fellowship too much because or, rightly because that's the commonality they had was that This is how we would want to do church.

So it wasn't just a church. Even in the model of church planting from that church, when they plant out churches, they say you're going to start a fellowship, not just a church.

I think with regards to the grace on family members, for me, I've got a small family here. It's only my mom. My sisters, my brother, and we were all in the church, so I guess that we were all experiencing the grace that was there.

I would think maybe for Kwesi's family, it probably would have been different. I think they saw it completely different. Whereas we're doing the church, we're giving our helping hand, we're encouraging people in the church, and we're doing all of that for the church members. wasn't necessarily something that we gave out to somebody who was not a part of the church.

So I don't think I would say that they would have experienced that grace and that made it very difficult. It just makes it made it very difficult over the years. For a long time. Because they felt that we chose, it's like you chosen God and the church over family. That's how it felt for them.

And they would describe it as that, because that grace that we have somehow, it was only for church members to experience it. And I don't think that's what God's trying to say here that the grace that he's given to us is only for the people around. Our community might not just be the church, our community, are the people around the corner, are the people that will meet, let's say, waitrose, or it's still who, how do we decide who is to experience that grace that we have received and we're given?

So that's one thing I'd say that would have been, which kind

of takes me to the next question, which I'd really like you to start answering as well is so in that, because I don't want to denigrate that model in any matter, manner whatsoever, because it's really clear from time spent with you guys that what it has done is it's putting you this deep foundation of God's word and this deep foundation of knowing that the Christian community isn't a game.

It's something really important and precious. So my question is, what were the best things that came out of your experience? knowing because I know you left eventually, we'll get to that. But what are the best things that came out of that experience? And what are the things that weren't so good that came out of that

experience?

Okay, for me, I think the best thing that came out is getting really close to Christ, putting much effort into that. And I think because the model was so that we left, though, if you want to call it quote, unquote, the worldly stuff. We surrounded everything about Christ, even if sometimes we're surrounded around the church.

But that made you very close to God, relying on him for like literally everything, because you wouldn't rely on anybody else. And for me, that's why I always talk about that strong trust in God. And I think it stems from that, that he's the giver of all things and putting my trust in my, my, I would say that for me, my trust in God is really strong, even if there's anything going around.

Literally, and I think it stemmed from going to a church where everything was Christ centred and there was no. Ifs and buts and sideways and alleyways. It was just God, everything to do with God. Your morning, your holiday was centred around church. Even if around church, your holiday, you'd fix your holiday around church conferences.

So your holiday would be a church conference week. So I think that central of thinking about everything about God. I think that's what I picked up from. And of course, Kwesi as well. He's a product of church. He's a good one though, yeah? Yes, he's a good one. I think the only thing not so good was, again, seeing that strain from family life.

It really had an impact on the family unit itself, that personal family unit, that was not as strong as what you would want it to be because everything was church, it was church, it wasn't husband and wife and kids or anything like that. So I think that's where I see from my end, Kwesi was in leadership, so you might see other things.

Let's ask him, shall we? Ask him. Yeah,

So I think the model is, for me, the good thing is obviously that the fellowship, the teaching prayer so those dedication, those spiritual disciplines. was inculcated in those years in those church. The bits which made this model work was centered a little bit around heavy shepherding.

And so that was the bits that I think that's what held the community together. So what do you,

so can you define heavy shepherding? Yeah, I

think it's a model of pastoral care, which relies on, leadership by headship and their headship. It's, you have a leader and their leader leads what, he's a shepherd and therefore shepherds looks after the flock.

And that in the strength of that is your pastor is your shepherd. And therefore you as a believer. You understand that they are accountable to them and also to God and that kind of model it is and I think it's, it can have its ways in and there has been a lot of movements where struggled with membership as a result of that.

So

would that mean that if you disagreed with your shepherd, then that was actually seen as a very negative thing?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes.

Very negative. Absolutely. This is add this, it's yeah. It would just be seen as a rebellious act. Okay. Yeah. And

as a rebel would be, would that be a matter of not just what you did, but if you disagreed.

Yes.

Yeah.

So how, okay. So having said all of that, what I see in here, there's this bit where it says they enjoyed the favor of all the people. Now the implication for that in, in the context, because of course the context is that this is rooted very firmly in rabbinic Judaism and it's growing out of rabbinic Judaism and the community aspect and family of course is hugely important.

But that they were doing something slightly different. It wasn't massively different, actually, than rabbinic Judaism, but it was very different in that it was full of the Holy Spirit. You had all these miracles happening and you had sharing, doing things in different ways. But the implication of enjoying the favor of all the people is this isn't just the community of faith.

This is like. All the people on the edges, people who aren't even part of it are giving favour because of what they're seeing. Did you experience

that? I think that what we experienced is that the people who were outside were not seeing it. And it's made the favor will be the people in.

Rather than the people outside. So initially it will look to see if that and that's where the difference that we have grown to understand the grace of it because the grace is extension from the church into the community. We want the community to feel the love of the church and the community to feel what God has birth into overflow to the people.

But it was a safe that to fill it, you have to be in it.

See, I think it's really important to say right now, so much good stuff came out of that church. Absolutely. In your faith, in the faith of so many people around you, I would be really surprised if people fell out of that church and fell away from faith.

They may have left the church, but actually their faith was really rooted because they were loved into it. Maybe heavily sometimes, but they were loved into it. Absolutely. Why did

you leave? I think we had got to a point where we needed to move on. We again, disagreement with leadership will always lead to that.

And and yeah, and there was a point where you felt that this is good, but it's not sustainable for, forever. And also, there are certain things which you want, you can't change. So if you can't change, then you probably need to think about how grace... She can be expressed somewhere else.

And I think one of the, one of the books that really helped us in it is R. T. Kendall's book on grace. And I think it's because understanding unconditional grace. And because if you are in such a a strong fellowship, heavy shepherding setting it becomes a little bit legalistic with less, experience of grace.

I just add that I remembered the time we left. Clearly that has not left my mind. It was very traumatic for me. But I remember Kwesi saying that you made this statement. that you were not about just the church, our building, you were about the kingdom of God. And whatever you had heard was not something that was to benefit other people outside of the church itself.

And that was a problem. I remember clearly, because I'm like, why are we living? I've got literally all my friends, because I came from the Caribbean, into the church. So my friendships. were birthed from the church. That's what all my friends were. And he said, no, he came from a meeting. I don't know what the meeting is about.

I've never heard what exactly went on in that meeting. But he just said, I'm about kingdom business. I'm not about a building.

So I take it they, they brought custard creams instead of bourbons. That was the issue. No, it must have been a really I know from my past choosing to leave a community where you just.

You do. You love people, and it's really hard choice. That must have been a hard decision.

It was a very, it was a really hard decision. And I think you just think about the consequence of that on the family, our friendship, all wedding, bridal team, everything. It was just. So hard. But when I thought I said a kingdom of this is about a kingdom of God.

And this that's that was the decision that I made that I think I wanted to experience grace in the kingdom more. In a sense. And did you

find it? Did you go somewhere else? Did you find something?

Yeah we moved to another church. I think we prayed about it quite a bit and then we looked around and we moved to another church.

And I think it was the right move how God works in terms of seeing what's ahead. You can't see it, but the new church that we went to, they were very accommodating, wanted to know where we came from, not just. Welcome. Yeah, you're welcome. Where have you come from? What is your experience?

What are you bringing to, to us? And stuff like that. And, yeah, they were very gracious, I'd say. Really welcomed us, made us feel at home, made us feel that, yeah, there's a place for us. that in the church and helped us to grow a bit more. Our family grew there as well, family grew there. Yeah, and Kwesi was able to still continue his work with church work in church in terms of leadership in men's ministry, like he's done, but being able to actually do men's ministry in the community.

Not just the church. So now that we're seeing people out outside Yeah, as well as inside the church that was completely different So we knew that obviously this is God because what this is what he had said that he just said It was an abrupt leaving of church you

just, you look like you're, but you've been traumatized by the whole thing.

Just from knowing you a little bit, clearly community relationships, friendships, family are really

important to me. So that was, it was a lot.

So how have you found grace from God for that those wounds that hurts that are there?

I think it's being able To forgive because when we left, we had literally lost all our friends.

It's not I think I've lost them. They lost and trying to think of, why have they done this to me? I've been with them for, they're my bridesmaids, my maid of honor, the people I trusted with my thoughts, the people I trust, my family trusted with me and being able to extend that forgiveness.

I love them. I had to forgive. It didn't come straight away. I can't say that it came straight away. It came with time. Having God, understanding that, you know what, God has forgiven me. For all the things I've done, and I know what they are. Just think, I know what they are, and I know that if God can forgive me.

All these people have done is just stop talking to me. Because they've been told not to talk to me. It's not like they've done it on their own. Having that heart to forgive and then going on to having a heart to actually speak to them and not bring back memories but speak to them in love like nothing's not like nothing's happened but just speak to them with love and care to say I still care about them I still care about you yeah I love them anyways and that's not easy I don't think that's easy to just love somebody who just Left you hanging, it's that's very hard.

And I think it takes grace to do that. It's not automatic It doesn't happen outside on the street where somebody's done something really bad to you. No, I forgive you. That's all No, it takes time. And I think the grace of God it because you've got it. You've received it You have it to give I can do this I can forgive The girls, quite a few of them, I can forgive them in my heart and if I see them on the street, it's okay.

It's hello, how are you doing? How are your kids? How's your husband? And just talk to them as, yeah, because in my heart, I'm not carrying that burden or carrying that noise. I've let that go and that's all because of God.

And I think the other thing I will add to that is that, so I said one of the things when we, the first few weeks that we left, somebody got me, advised me to get R.

T. Kendall's book, Total Forgiveness, I think that's the title of the book, and because it was, you only have to understand when people stop talking to you because you've left the church And it just didn't make sense to me. And then after that, I just understood grace, understood how loving, how gracious God is.

And we had a total different experience. So for this experience, so fast, fast forward before we came to CCBS. So the church that we went to, where we graciously got healing supports, granted favor, everything just to, to settle. And then. The pastor actually visited us in CCBS to see if we are okay when we moved, and I was like, wow, we've never seen that before.